On Mon July 28 2008 11:26:15 Alan Cox wrote:
> Seconded. I've given up on the fedora-list for the most part, and its
> driving users way from the Fedora project. I don't care if its
> fedora-ranting, or just fedora-without-alexanfre-and-les we set up but
> soemthing needs doing before it has a debian-legal like toxic effect on the
> whole userbase

I like the lawless-ness of the fedora-list (it reminds me of just outside my
window :-) ). Generally its self policing and its always worked upto now, but
Alexandre Oliva was told on this list to STFU and he obliged that aint quite
worked on the fedora-list.

> That or the fedora board could actually tell them to shut up and kick them
> off if they don't

I also like the fact this is one list in fedora the board fears to tread. :-)
I've seen codes of conduct mentioned in this thread but this requires offical
list police, who's up for that?

...dex

p.s this is on topic (subj. changed)

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To: Michael.Coll-Barth@verizonwireless.com
Subject: Re: Move to 8.04, Hardy Heron
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 21:44:34 +0100
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Ol=C3=A1 Barth e a todos.

On Monday 16 June 2008 22:05:26 Michael.Coll-Barth@verizonwireless.com wrot=
e:
> This weekend, I actually went so far as to click on the Upgrade button
> for 8.04. Then I saw how long the download would take, multiplied that
> by 5 ( the number of Ubuntu systems I have ) and said 'nyet'. I found
> an old email in this forum that talked about doing upgrades using the
> alternative CD. So, I went and downloaded it and tried the following
> suggestion.

You could easily just upgraded one machine and then copied the /var/cache/a=
pt to the other machines!
#sudo apt-get clean
#sudo apt-get update
#update-manager -d

see how easy!?


other options were to use apt-catcher, apt-zip or deb-torrent

=2D-=20
BUGabundo )
(``-_-=C2=B4=C2=B4) http://Ubuntu.BUGabundo.net
Linux user #443786 GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB
My new micro-blog @ http://BUGabundo.net
ps. My emails tend to sound authority and aggressive. I'm sorry in advance.=
I'll try to be more assertive as time goes by...

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To: Linda Hanigan <haniganwork@earthlik.net>
Subject: Re: Way to view MS Office's new file format
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 21:17:41 +0100
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Ol=C3=A1 Linda e a todos.

On Tuesday 22 July 2008 15:18:57 Linda Hanigan wrote:
> Is there an open source way to view MS Office's new file format?
> We are starting to get more of these annoying files as email
> attachments.=20
> Thanks
> Linda

OpenOffice starting in version 2.3.1 should open MSFT docx without many pro=
blems.
xlsx is a bit more tricky.

=2D-=20
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I'll try to be more assertive as time goes by...

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dexter wrote:
> On Mon July 28 2008 11:26:15 Alan Cox wrote:
>> Seconded. I've given up on the fedora-list for the most part, and its
>> driving users way from the Fedora project. I don't care if its
>> fedora-ranting, or just fedora-without-alexanfre-and-les we set up but
>> soemthing needs doing before it has a debian-legal like toxic effect on the
>> whole userbase
>
> I like the lawless-ness of the fedora-list (it reminds me of just
> outside my window :-) ). Generally its self policing and its always
> worked upto now, but Alexandre Oliva was told on this list to STFU
> and he obliged that aint quite worked on the fedora-list.

It surely was on-topic here to talk about whether unfree binary blobs
should be included in Fedora.

Do we really want to say that if any ethical question arises during
discussion on Fedora lists, people may not address it?

Andrew.

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On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 02:10:14PM +0100, Andrew Haley wrote:
> It surely was on-topic here to talk about whether unfree binary blobs
> should be included in Fedora.

I think it was. But the million message circular arguments about GPL
interpretation were most definitely not, and the result of that was that
everyone put the participants, subject or even the entire list on kill

> Do we really want to say that if any ethical question arises during
> discussion on Fedora lists, people may not address it?

Do you really want everyone to unsubscribe and run something else. I know
many people who left Debian for exactly this reason.

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* Andrew Haley <aph@redhat.com> [20080728 15:10]:
[snip]
> It surely was on-topic here to talk about whether unfree binary blobs
> should be included in Fedora.

About the technical implementation, sure. How do you 'devel'op the
mechanism to separate out the firmware and still be able to deliver
it.

> Do we really want to say that if any ethical question arises during
> discussion on Fedora lists, people may not address it?

Then migrate the subsequent flame-fest and inflamatory statements to
fedora-political, fedora-flames or fedora-legal ? Let it rot in peace
in obscurity, where such quasi-religious discussions belong.

The .advocacy groups on usenet is well known for being the playground
to hone your argumentation skills. Do we want fedora-list (where users
ask for help) or fedora-devel (where serious development discussions
are supposed to take place) to be this playground?

I'd be somewhat surprised if anyone answered yes to that question.

/Anders

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On Mon, 2008-07-28 at 14:10 +0100, Andrew Haley wrote:
> dexter wrote:
> > On Mon July 28 2008 11:26:15 Alan Cox wrote:
> >> Seconded. I've given up on the fedora-list for the most part, and its
> >> driving users way from the Fedora project. I don't care if its
> >> fedora-ranting, or just fedora-without-alexanfre-and-les we set up but
> >> soemthing needs doing before it has a debian-legal like toxic effect on the
> >> whole userbase
> >
> > I like the lawless-ness of the fedora-list (it reminds me of just
> > outside my window :-) ). Generally its self policing and its always
> > worked upto now, but Alexandre Oliva was told on this list to STFU
> > and he obliged that aint quite worked on the fedora-list.
>
> It surely was on-topic here to talk about whether unfree binary blobs
> should be included in Fedora.

Sure.
But not in -devel and not -users.

>
> Do we really want to say that if any ethical question arises during
> discussion on Fedora lists, people may not address it?
>

Again, ethical/political/etc questions have no place in an ML that
-should- be dedicated to users who seek help. I doubt that they even
have place in -testing and/or -devel.

I've been subscribed to fedora-* more-or-less since FC2.
For the first time in years I'm thinking about unsubscribing.

- Gilboa


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On 7/28/2008 10:04 AM, Gilboa Davara wrote:

Again, ethical/political/etc questions have no place in an ML that
-should- be dedicated to users who seek help. I doubt that they even
have place in -testing and/or -devel.

I've been subscribed to fedora-* more-or-less since FC2.
For the first time in years I'm thinking about unsubscribing


I've been on these lists from the early days as well. I've seen some
interesting discussions, however I was never under the impression that
this was as big of a problem as some people seem to portray it. Does
anyone have any metrics on how many of these "inappropriate" threads
there truly are in relation to how many are "appropriate"? I think it
would help make this issue much more clear. For example, if we are
talking about less than 1% of all posts are "inappropriate", then that
is a heck of a lot different than if it is 35%. Similarly, if there are
say 10,000 posts in a month, 1% is a bigger problem than if there are
only 100 posts per month.


So, do we have some actual numbers or is it just a "gut feel"?


Tom

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On Mon, 2008-07-28 at 10:29 -0400, Tom Rivers wrote:
> On 7/28/2008 10:04 AM, Gilboa Davara wrote:
> > Again, ethical/political/etc questions have no place in an ML that
> > -should- be dedicated to users who seek help. I doubt that they even
> > have place in -testing and/or -devel.
> >
> > I've been subscribed to fedora-* more-or-less since FC2.
> > For the first time in years I'm thinking about unsubscribing
>
> I've been on these lists from the early days as well. I've seen some
> interesting discussions, however I was never under the impression that
> this was as big of a problem as some people seem to portray it. Does
> anyone have any metrics on how many of these "inappropriate" threads
> there truly are in relation to how many are "appropriate"? I think it
> would help make this issue much more clear. For example, if we are
> talking about less than 1% of all posts are "inappropriate", then that
> is a heck of a lot different than if it is 35%. Similarly, if there are
> say 10,000 posts in a month, 1% is a bigger problem than if there are
> only 100 posts per month.
>
> So, do we have some actual numbers or is it just a "gut feel"?
>
>
> Tom


I don't have solid numbers, but at least according to my gmail trash
contents, around ~1/4-1/5 of the posts that were sent to -users between,
say, Tuesday and Saturday belonged to one of the 4 "GPL" threads.

... And even if I'm wrong by an order of magnitude, and we are only
talking about 10% of all the -users traffic, given the fact that these
threads are off-topic to being with, this is way-too-much.

- Gilboa

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On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 6:04 AM, Gilboa Davara <gilboad@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sure.
> But not in -devel and not -users.

Just a point of fact... fedora-list is not spelled fedora-users-list.
Perhaps the people are asking for the wrong solution to the wrong problem.
Perhaps fedora-list is meant to be widely scoped, and perhaps people
want a narrow list focused just on users. I wonder what such a list
would end up being named?

I'll drop my hint just one more time. I'm perfectly happy to support
the creation of lists for specific constructive purposes. If you feel
fedora-list isn't servicing a specific purpose well, perhaps you and
others can manage the creation of a new list, specific in scope, to
the user issues that you actually care about, instead of attempting to
muscle noisy discussions to a new place.

-jef

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* Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta@gmail.com> [20080728 19:47]:
> On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 6:04 AM, Gilboa Davara <gilboad@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Sure.
> > But not in -devel and not -users.
>
> Just a point of fact... fedora-list is not spelled fedora-users-list.
> Perhaps the people are asking for the wrong solution to the wrong problem.
> Perhaps fedora-list is meant to be widely scoped, and perhaps people
> want a narrow list focused just on users. I wonder what such a list
> would end up being named?
>
> I'll drop my hint just one more time. I'm perfectly happy to support
> the creation of lists for specific constructive purposes. If you feel
> fedora-list isn't servicing a specific purpose well, perhaps you and
> others can manage the creation of a new list, specific in scope, to
> the user issues that you actually care about, instead of attempting to
> muscle noisy discussions to a new place.

Jeff,

Do you have a link to the documentation for how to do the creation
request, the criteria and supporting docs required for it to be
granted and what would be required to point new users at this new list
for the location to go for technical help from users of Fedora,
i.e. changing the wiki/website to point at the new list?

The way I read your response - you are stating that fedora-list is the
"everything and the kitchen sink" list, and I believe that is a bit
broad to point users at that need help or support.

Many thanks for your assistance.

/Anders
"If Mohammed won't leave the mountain, the mountain will leave Mohammed"

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On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 10:06 AM, Anders Karlsson <anders@trudheim.co.uk> wrote:
> Do you have a link to the documentation for how to do the creation
> request, the criteria and supporting docs required for it to be
> granted and what would be required to point new users at this new list
> for the location to go for technical help from users of Fedora,
> i.e. changing the wiki/website to point at the new list?

No I have no specific link, because I have never needed to create a
list. Surely its not different than creating a SIG list.

>
> The way I read your response - you are stating that fedora-list is the
> "everything and the kitchen sink" list, and I believe that is a bit
> broad to point users at that need help or support.

I am saying, that I require that people asking for new lists care
about the subject matter of the new list and are going to be active
participants and can be counted on to craft a productive list culture
in the new list. The people currently having the noisy discussion in
fedora-list could make a request for a fedora-policy-debate-list and
I'd have a much easier time following up on that request, because it
would be coming from the people who want to use the list. If the
people currently in the discussion are having it in fedora-list
because its the most subscribed list and are doing it there
specifically to increase the changes of having a lot of people see
their opinions... creating a separate list won't solve the trolling
problem.

The issue of it being on-topic or off-topic for fedora-list is
orthogonal to whether we should create separate list for the
discussion. Someone who actually wants to use the dedicated list
should be making the request.

-jef

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