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Old 07-28-2008, 05:40 AM
Anders Karlsson
 
Default OT: (?) Calling on Fedora/RedHat ML managers to clean up Fedora-list.

* Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta@gmail.com> [20080728 06:47]:
> On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 8:28 PM, Gilboa Davara <gilboad@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Would it be possible to create a Fedora-policy ML and get people to
> > stop spamming (either willingly or by using blacklists) the main MLs?
>
> Basically you want a mailinglist for all the discussions that
> experienced users and contributors are tired of seeing repeated?

Jeff,

comp.os.linux.advocacy - something along those lines. If you call it
"fedora-advocacy", "fedora-politics" or
"fedora-welcome-to-where-idiots-roam", I don't really mind.

The threads that Gilboa mentions is the sole reason I implemented
Sieve in my mailserver at home. fedora-devel and fedora-list became
interesting and useful about as soon as those threads were filtered
out.

Read in to it what you want.

/Anders

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Old 07-28-2008, 06:38 AM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default OT: (?) Calling on Fedora/RedHat ML managers to clean up Fedora-list.

On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 9:40 PM, Anders Karlsson <anders@trudheim.co.uk> wrote:
> The threads that Gilboa mentions is the sole reason I implemented
> Sieve in my mailserver at home. fedora-devel and fedora-list became
> interesting and useful about as soon as those threads were filtered
> out.
>
> Read in to it what you want.

You miss my point. Are these discussions valuable or not. If they
are not... then we shouldn't make a place for them.... period. I
don't see anyone who actually standing up and saying these things are
valued and thus worth preparing a special place for in our resource
pool. If we are only considering making more channels so some of us
can ignore others among us because they are talking about things we
don't care about... I'm not prepared to support that.

I'll consider supporting additional dedicated communications channel
for things when the people who find value in the discussion in
question ask for a dedicated list. They must be able to make the case
that such dedicated communication will actually be useful in helping a
team of people work together towards some identified task or goal
which helps moves the project forward.

-jef"I never read what I write, my spam filter it smart enough to flag
my own posts as trash"spaleta

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Old 07-28-2008, 07:00 AM
Anders Karlsson
 
Default OT: (?) Calling on Fedora/RedHat ML managers to clean up Fedora-list.

* Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta@gmail.com> [20080728 08:39]:
> On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 9:40 PM, Anders Karlsson <anders@trudheim.co.uk> wrote:
> > The threads that Gilboa mentions is the sole reason I implemented
> > Sieve in my mailserver at home. fedora-devel and fedora-list became
> > interesting and useful about as soon as those threads were filtered
> > out.
> >
> > Read in to it what you want.
>
> You miss my point. Are these discussions valuable or not. If they
> are not... then we shouldn't make a place for them.... period. I
> don't see anyone who actually standing up and saying these things are
> valued and thus worth preparing a special place for in our resource
> pool. If we are only considering making more channels so some of us
> can ignore others among us because they are talking about things we
> don't care about... I'm not prepared to support that.

I see what you mean.

Are the discussions in question valuable? No, they are about as useful
as a chocolate teapot.

> I'll consider supporting additional dedicated communications channel
> for things when the people who find value in the discussion in
> question ask for a dedicated list. They must be able to make the case
> that such dedicated communication will actually be useful in helping a
> team of people work together towards some identified task or goal
> which helps moves the project forward.

Cool, I'll carry on with the kill-lists then. If any of the
participants would ever consider contributing anything remotely
valuable in future, I'll remain in blissful ignorance. Despite me
participating in one or two of the threads, I consider them to be
ultimately harmful to the Fedora Project, and to Red Hat, a point I
have stated.

It's a shame there is no facility to block at source though, on the
list server. That would be a useful addition, as that would cut down
on the amount of bandwidth used.

> -jef"I never read what I write, my spam filter it smart enough to flag
> my own posts as trash"spaleta

*lol*

I better disable Amavis on outgoing mail then. I think I'm in the same
boat. ;-)

/Anders

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Old 07-28-2008, 10:26 AM
Alan Cox
 
Default OT: (?) Calling on Fedora/RedHat ML managers to clean up Fedora-list.

On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 07:40:52AM +0200, Anders Karlsson wrote:
> * Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta@gmail.com> [20080728 06:47]:
> > On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 8:28 PM, Gilboa Davara <gilboad@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Would it be possible to create a Fedora-policy ML and get people to
> > > stop spamming (either willingly or by using blacklists) the main MLs?
> >
> > Basically you want a mailinglist for all the discussions that
> > experienced users and contributors are tired of seeing repeated?
>
> Jeff,
>
> comp.os.linux.advocacy - something along those lines. If you call it
> "fedora-advocacy", "fedora-politics" or
> "fedora-welcome-to-where-idiots-roam", I don't really mind.

Seconded. I've given up on the fedora-list for the most part, and its driving
users way from the Fedora project. I don't care if its fedora-ranting, or
just fedora-without-alexanfre-and-les we set up but soemthing needs doing
before it has a debian-legal like toxic effect on the whole userbase

That or the fedora board could actually tell them to shut up and kick them off
if they don't

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Old 07-28-2008, 10:27 AM
Alan Cox
 
Default OT: (?) Calling on Fedora/RedHat ML managers to clean up Fedora-list.

On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 10:38:27PM -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
> You miss my point. Are these discussions valuable or not. If they
> are not... then we shouldn't make a place for them.... period. I

Wrong. Very wrong.

If there is a mountain of turd flowing through your house do you

- decide it isn't valuable and leave it to flow

- provide somewhere else for it to go so that you can use your house again

Alan

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Old 07-28-2008, 10:54 AM
Anders Karlsson
 
Default OT: (?) Calling on Fedora/RedHat ML managers to clean up Fedora-list.

* Alan Cox <alan@redhat.com> [20080728 12:26]:
> On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 07:40:52AM +0200, Anders Karlsson wrote:
> > * Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta@gmail.com> [20080728 06:47]:
> > > On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 8:28 PM, Gilboa Davara <gilboad@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Would it be possible to create a Fedora-policy ML and get people to
> > > > stop spamming (either willingly or by using blacklists) the main MLs?
> > >
> > > Basically you want a mailinglist for all the discussions that
> > > experienced users and contributors are tired of seeing repeated?
> >
> > Jeff,
> >
> > comp.os.linux.advocacy - something along those lines. If you call it
> > "fedora-advocacy", "fedora-politics" or
> > "fedora-welcome-to-where-idiots-roam", I don't really mind.
>
> Seconded. I've given up on the fedora-list for the most part, and its driving
> users way from the Fedora project. I don't care if its fedora-ranting, or
> just fedora-without-alexanfre-and-les we set up but soemthing needs doing
> before it has a debian-legal like toxic effect on the whole userbase

Considering the length, and amount, of threads that topic spawned,
there seems to be excessive willingness and energy to debate that
topic.

Splitting out the advocacy / hairsplitting / holy-war /
I'm-more-right-than-you-are type debates to a separate list ought to
be a "Project Self Preservation" action. Bit like the -sounder list in
Ubuntu (like someone else mentioned) where I even think you're warned
that topics will be inflammatory.

fedora-list, do correct me if I am off base, intention was for users
to be able to turn to with queries or requests for help, or just to
get advise on how to go about doing things with Fedora.
Not to get sunk in a veritable swamp of irrelevant, rehashed religious
style diatrabe.

If users first interaction with Fedora is fedora-list, "the August
2008 archives", I'll understand if they punt the Fedora ISO's into the
trash and hop off elsewhere. No, really.

> That or the fedora board could actually tell them to shut up and kick them off
> if they don't

Something equivalent to the Code Of Conduct that Canonical
implemented. It worked on the ubuntu lists. No reason it would not
work here.

/Anders

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Old 07-28-2008, 12:24 PM
seth vidal
 
Default OT: (?) Calling on Fedora/RedHat ML managers to clean up Fedora-list.

On Mon, 2008-07-28 at 12:54 +0200, Anders Karlsson wrote:
> Something equivalent to the Code Of Conduct that Canonical
> implemented. It worked on the ubuntu lists. No reason it would not
> work here.

I've got no problem with a separate list. I have A LOT of problems with
a code of conduct for fedora.

-sv


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Old 07-28-2008, 01:46 PM
max
 
Default OT: (?) Calling on Fedora/RedHat ML managers to clean up Fedora-list.

Anders Karlsson wrote:

* Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta@gmail.com> [20080728 08:39]:

On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 9:40 PM, Anders Karlsson <anders@trudheim.co.uk> wrote:

The threads that Gilboa mentions is the sole reason I implemented
Sieve in my mailserver at home. fedora-devel and fedora-list became
interesting and useful about as soon as those threads were filtered
out.

Read in to it what you want.

You miss my point. Are these discussions valuable or not. If they
are not... then we shouldn't make a place for them.... period. I
don't see anyone who actually standing up and saying these things are
valued and thus worth preparing a special place for in our resource
pool. If we are only considering making more channels so some of us
can ignore others among us because they are talking about things we
don't care about... I'm not prepared to support that.


I see what you mean.

Are the discussions in question valuable? No, they are about as useful
as a chocolate teapot.


Speak for yourself.


I'll consider supporting additional dedicated communications channel
for things when the people who find value in the discussion in
question ask for a dedicated list. They must be able to make the case
that such dedicated communication will actually be useful in helping a
team of people work together towards some identified task or goal
which helps moves the project forward.


Cool, I'll carry on with the kill-lists then. If any of the
participants would ever consider contributing anything remotely
valuable in future, I'll remain in blissful ignorance. Despite me
participating in one or two of the threads, I consider them to be
ultimately harmful to the Fedora Project, and to Red Hat, a point I
have stated.

How can a discussion of open source and the GPL be harmful to Fedora or
Red Hat?

In what bizarro universe does that even begin to make sense.
People that don't find the conversation useful should ignore it, that
is after all what mail filters were created to do.
People that understand and respect freedom don't advocate censorship
in any form. If you don't have the discipline to ignore the conversation
then that's your problem.


I am willing to accept that perhaps I have missed the point of the
Fedora Project entirely. So maybe one of you generous souls could
enlighten me.



-Max



--
Fortune favors the BOLD

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Old 07-28-2008, 05:29 PM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default OT: (?) Calling on Fedora/RedHat ML managers to clean up Fedora-list.

On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 2:27 AM, Alan Cox <alan@redhat.com> wrote:
> Wrong. Very wrong.
>
> If there is a mountain of turd flowing through your house do you
>
> - decide it isn't valuable and leave it to flow

I never said that i was going to specifically condone it. I said I'm
not going to support making a specific space for it. If its not
constructive then perhaps it shouldn't be happening in the controlled
space of this project. There is no direct mandate or requirement that
we allow or condone all speech. If someone wants to propose a
reasonable and fair moderation scheme and the manpower to sustain it..
they are free to do that.

>
> - provide somewhere else for it to go so that you can use your house again

It has the whole internet to go to. I certainly do not have to
provide that somewhere else if I do not value the discussion.

-jef"Like my local bartender says: you don't have to go home, but you
can't stay here"spaleta

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Old 07-28-2008, 05:57 PM
"Josh Bressers"
 
Default OT: (?) Calling on Fedora/RedHat ML managers to clean up Fedora-list.

On Mon, July 28, 2008 12:11 pm, Lyos Gemini Norezel wrote:
> seth vidal wrote:
>> On Mon, 2008-07-28 at 12:54 +0200, Anders Karlsson wrote:
>>
>>> Something equivalent to the Code Of Conduct that Canonical
>>> implemented. It worked on the ubuntu lists. No reason it would not
>>> work here.
>>>
>>
>> I've got no problem with a separate list. I have A LOT of problems with
>> a code of conduct for fedora.
>>
>> -sv
>
> I agree with Seth.
> Most of the "flame-fest" threads mentioned, while mostly boring,
> idiotic, and several other adjectives
> I can think of... they do, on occaision, produce *something* of value,
> albeit rarely.
>
> Shall we ban idiots, simply because they're moronic?
> How about we just shoot 90% of the world and be done with it?
>

The real question becomes, is who is an idiot?

There are certainly people who are trouble, but how long until a policy
such as this just turns into a witch hunt?

You don't like someone? Great, just bait them into breaking the policy
and get them kicked out!

If you don't like a thread, just ignore it. That's a lot less work than
creating an overly elaborate code of conduct nobody is really going to
follow anyway.

I compare this to talking to a boring person at a party. Are you going to
stand there and complain how boring they are, or go find someone more
interesting to talk to?

--
JB

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