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Old 07-20-2008, 05:58 AM
Tim Jackson
 
Default ENVR checking

What happened to that script that used to run and check all the ENVRs
across releases to make sure that there was a proper upgrade path (i.e.

F8 < F8-updates < F9 etc.)? That was really useful.

I have had a disappointing experience on a couple of machines with doing
upgrades from F-8 to F-9, where there are a lot of F-8 packages still
hanging around that shouldn't be, mostly due to ENVR problems (F-8 updates
> F-9)


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Old 07-20-2008, 07:10 AM
Michael Schwendt
 
Default ENVR checking

On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 06:58:38 +0100, Tim Jackson wrote:

> What happened to that script that used to run and check all the ENVRs
> across releases to make sure that there was a proper upgrade path (i.e.
> F8 < F8-updates < F9 etc.)? That was really useful.
>
> I have had a disappointing experience on a couple of machines with doing
> upgrades from F-8 to F-9, where there are a lot of F-8 packages still
> hanging around that shouldn't be, mostly due to ENVR problems (F-8 updates
> > F-9)

Still in cvs:
http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewcvs/upgradecheck/?root=fedora

It used to be run automatically after each Extras push, but when the
build system moved to koji and bodhi, this feature was killed. Probably
it was considered unimportant or a source of "spam". That's a problem
with stuff that isn't backed up or enforced by project leadership. When
I started to run it manually after some time prior to the next release
of Fedora, the number of negative voices was overwhelming: Those with
test updates newer than rawhide complained. Those with F-[n-1] test
updates newer than F-[n] complained. Those with pending updates in
bodhi complained. Those who found it helpful stayed silent. From those,
who didn't understand the private mails they received, only a very few
asked for an explanation.

Recently I've seen a comment somewhere that Josh Boyer seems to have
a similar but different script somewhere. I don't know how it differs.

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Old 07-20-2008, 01:10 PM
Josh Boyer
 
Default ENVR checking

On Sun, 2008-07-20 at 09:10 +0200, Michael Schwendt wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 06:58:38 +0100, Tim Jackson wrote:
>
> > What happened to that script that used to run and check all the ENVRs
> > across releases to make sure that there was a proper upgrade path (i.e.
> > F8 < F8-updates < F9 etc.)? That was really useful.
> >
> > I have had a disappointing experience on a couple of machines with doing
> > upgrades from F-8 to F-9, where there are a lot of F-8 packages still
> > hanging around that shouldn't be, mostly due to ENVR problems (F-8 updates
> > > F-9)
>
> Still in cvs:
> http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewcvs/upgradecheck/?root=fedora
>
> It used to be run automatically after each Extras push, but when the
> build system moved to koji and bodhi, this feature was killed. Probably
> it was considered unimportant or a source of "spam". That's a problem

It's still important. Apparently not enough to hook into the
build/update systems at the moment though, because there are bigger fish
to fry.

> Recently I've seen a comment somewhere that Josh Boyer seems to have
> a similar but different script somewhere. I don't know how it differs.

It hooks into koji to see if there are builds that are in koji but not
in a repo that would fix things. That feature is mostly only useable
during rawhide freezes.

josh

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Old 07-20-2008, 03:14 PM
Stephen Warren
 
Default ENVR checking

Michael Schwendt wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 06:58:38 +0100, Tim Jackson wrote:
>
>> What happened to that script that used to run and check all the ENVRs
>> across releases to make sure that there was a proper upgrade path (i.e.
>> F8 < F8-updates < F9 etc.)? That was really useful.
>>
>> I have had a disappointing experience on a couple of machines with doing
>> upgrades from F-8 to F-9, where there are a lot of F-8 packages still
>> hanging around that shouldn't be, mostly due to ENVR problems (F-8 updates
>> > F-9)
>
> Still in cvs:
> http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewcvs/upgradecheck/?root=fedora
>
> It used to be run automatically after each Extras push, but when the
> build system moved to koji and bodhi, this feature was killed. Probably
> it was considered unimportant or a source of "spam". That's a problem
> with stuff that isn't backed up or enforced by project leadership. When
> I started to run it manually after some time prior to the next release
> of Fedora, the number of negative voices was overwhelming...

Hmm. That negative feedback kinda sucks.

I was personally hit by this issue upgrading from F-8 to F-9. It didn't
actually break my upgrade, but it would have nice not to encounter, and
seemingly very easily avoided.

Perhaps this issue should be proposed as a discussion point for the next
FESCO meeting?

I filed bugs, and one of the two rpms I had not-upgraded was re-released
as a new update for F-9 which solved that.

The other, grub, is a bit more problematic, since there's no way to
solve it in the actual preupgrade/CD-upgrade step, (since the install CD
and initial F-9 release probably can't be remade to fix it), and any new
F-9 features in grub could conceivably be relevant to an upgrade.

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Old 07-20-2008, 03:39 PM
Nicolas Mailhot
 
Default ENVR checking

Le dimanche 20 juillet 2008 à 09:10 +0200, Michael Schwendt a écrit :

> It used to be run automatically after each Extras push, but when the
> build system moved to koji and bodhi, this feature was killed.

Please reinstall it. It had a very beneficial effect on devel, and the
deterioration lately is very perceptible.

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Old 07-21-2008, 05:21 PM
"Jon Ciesla"
 
Default ENVR checking

> Le dimanche 20 juillet 2008 à 09:10 +0200, Michael Schwendt a écrit :
>
>> It used to be run automatically after each Extras push, but when the
>> build system moved to koji and bodhi, this feature was killed.
>
> Please reinstall it. It had a very beneficial effect on devel, and the
> deterioration lately is very perceptible.

+50,000. I miss it. It's particularly critical to Yum upgrade people,
which I know is not officially supported, but we do have a SIG:

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/LiveUpgrade

And I for one would appreciate it if this could be run periodically.
Maybe someone could take ownership of a cluster of scripts of this nature:
source audit, ENVR, b0rken deps, etc.

If no one else wants to run it, I might be interested in doing so.

> --
> Nicolas Mailhot
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> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list


--
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Old 07-21-2008, 06:16 PM
Tim Jackson
 
Default ENVR checking

Michael Schwendt wrote:


It used to be run automatically after each Extras push, but when the
build system moved to koji and bodhi, this feature was killed. Probably
it was considered unimportant or a source of "spam". That's a problem
with stuff that isn't backed up or enforced by project leadership. When
I started to run it manually after some time prior to the next release
of Fedora, the number of negative voices was overwhelming: Those with
test updates newer than rawhide complained. Those with F-[n-1] test
updates newer than F-[n] complained. Those with pending updates in
bodhi complained. Those who found it helpful stayed silent. From those,
who didn't understand the private mails they received, only a very few
asked for an explanation.


OK, well you shouldn't be fighting a lonely battle here. I'm certainly in
that silent many (majority?). It's easy to make a mistake with versioning
when we have so many branches and complex situations (base, updates etc.)
and I'm very grateful when errors are pointed out so that they can be
fixed. ENVR checking is really important, because aside from other reasons:


a) there's no point in doing all the packaging work we do if half the
users don't see it because they get stuck on old versions of packages when
they do upgrades (and let's face it, with such a fast-moving distribution
that even contributors like myself struggle to keep up with releases, we
can't expect everyone to be doing fresh installs each time)


b) half-baked systems that don't work properly (due to bad/old versions of
software after upgrades) just make Fedora look bad.


I've had at least two different F8->F9 upgraded machines end up unbootable
after a "yum upgrade", which may or may not be a result of ENVR issues
but either way it's really, really bad. (Thankfully I know enough to fix
them, but many other users would have given up and gone away with the
impression that Fedora trashed their PC.)


However, I'm obviously preaching to the converted. What do we have to do
to get this run in a regular, official, supported way on the Fedora
systems and with backup from FPC and whoever in making sure packagers fix
problems?


Tim

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Old 07-21-2008, 06:26 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default ENVR checking

On Mon, 2008-07-21 at 19:16 +0100, Tim Jackson wrote:
> However, I'm obviously preaching to the converted. What do we have to do
> to get this run in a regular, official, supported way on the Fedora
> systems and with backup from FPC and whoever in making sure packagers fix
> problems?

Ask nicely, perhaps with a ticket over at
https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/newticket

I took this morning and early afternoon to write up an e:n-v-r
comparison script that uses koji information as the basis of it's
comparison. I've got it compat-complete with the output of the old
script, and it runs in about 3 minutes to compare from f8-final all the
way up through rawhide.

It doesn't currently mail the maintainer directly, I would like the
package address aliases to be in place first (like
pungi-package@fedoraproject.org) so that I don't have to duplicate a
bunch of logic to figure out who all should hear personally about the
problem.

I'm going to check it into the rel-eng git tree in a moment and run it
manually for the first time to get the output sent to fedora-devel-list.

The output is somewhat separated from the data generation so it should
be easy enough to hack on it for output suggestions.

Finally we have to decide on when to run the script. Obviously once
daily makes sense, perhaps tied into the rawhide generation. I'm open
to ideas other than that, I wouldn't necessarily want to run it more
than once a day due to the email it would be sending directly to package
(co)maintainers/watchers.

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Old 07-21-2008, 06:29 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default ENVR checking

On Mon, 2008-07-21 at 14:26 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote:
> I'm going to check it into the rel-eng git tree in a moment and run it
> manually for the first time to get the output sent to
> fedora-devel-list.

Oh, I should point out that it will seem like a very long list because
it's noticing a missing feature in Bodhi, automatic obsolesence of older
updates, IE things in updates-testing that have been obviated by newer
testing updates, which have gone on to final. This leaves behind a
number of builds still in updates-testing that are n-v-r lower than
those in updates. Luke already has this fixed in upstream code, and
maybe today we'll go through and auto-obsolete the current set, but for
now the n-v-r report will be a bit...heavy on that info.

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Old 07-21-2008, 06:49 PM
Callum Lerwick
 
Default ENVR checking

On Mon, 2008-07-21 at 14:26 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote:
> Finally we have to decide on when to run the script. Obviously once
> daily makes sense, perhaps tied into the rawhide generation. I'm open
> to ideas other than that, I wouldn't necessarily want to run it more
> than once a day due to the email it would be sending directly to package
> (co)maintainers/watchers.

Ummm, seems to me what really needs to happen is something, somewhere in
the build/push system needs to refuse to ever allow broken upgrade
chains to get pushed into the repos in the first place. Or at least warn
you the very second you request such an action. Rather than trying to
detect and clean up the mess after the fact.
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