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Old 07-15-2008, 08:31 PM
Sebastian Dziallas
 
Default Fedora Spins and "where will this end?"

Hi all,

as you may have noticed, there has been a kind of discussion concerning
the future spins for F10 (and later) on this list. I was just drawing up
some statements for a possible Fedora EDU Math Spin [1] (note: this is
just a draft for now), but I think there are some points, which should
be mentioned.


The question I would like to ask is: "Where will all this lead to?"

I need to explain some things:

I created some time ago this roadmap [2] for the education SIG. In one
of our first meetings, we decided to focus first on applications for
mathematical purposes - that's how the idea of this EDU Math spin was
born. On the other hand, I'm aware of the fact (due to some discussions
I had with Warren at the beginning) that there are others, who're
building as well spins: Warren announced a K12LTSP spin including his
LTSP5-work [3], even if I don't know, how the current state is there [4].


So far so good, but what else do we have? The Astronomy SIG is preparing
an astronomy spin, too [5]. And I would bet that there'll be an OLPC (or
more specific: a sugar-based) spin more than soon [6] - this has also
already been mentioned three month ago in one of the education SIG's
meetings [7].


But then, have we already covered all possible topics - even if we stick
with the educational purposes for now? I tend to say no! There might be
still some place for an Fedora Education Language Spin (hey, why don't
why split this one up? - Fedora Education Language English and Fedora
Education Language German spin are awaiting their maintainers!)...


Sorry, this might somehow sound inappropriate, but that is just the way
it is. Don't get me wrong - I'm even myself a member of the Spin SIG and
I applaud everyone's efforts to make use of this innovative technology -
and I'm not going to blame anyone for his/her work, but still: I think
it's obvious that we're going to run into trouble that way...


What do you think?

Sebastian

---

[1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Education
[2] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Education/Roadmap
[3]
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-February/msg00888.html

[4] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/K12Linux
[5] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Astronomy/Spin
[6]
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-July/msg00926.html

[7] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Education/Meetings/2008-05-09

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Old 07-15-2008, 09:02 PM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default Fedora Spins and "where will this end?"

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Sebastian Dziallas <sebastian@when.com> wrote:
> The question I would like to ask is: "Where will all this lead to?"
Where does it lead...it leads to a lot of spins. We've known that for
a while. What we hope is that the Spin SIG leads to higher quality
and more maintainable spins.

The Spin SIG is the process by which we can tier these efforts so we
do not have to support each and every spin concept as part of the
"Release" process.

Fact 0:
We want people to build quality spins.
Fact 1:
our spin creation tools are make it dirt simple to create spins, but
we still need a best-practices approach with human review to ensure
quality.
Fact 2:
We do not have the resource to build and host every possible spin that
the community is interested in building.


Its perfectly okay if our community wants to build 100 different solid
spin concepts that we could brand as Fedora. If you and warren need to
work in parallel to get spin concepts up and running that target
similar but different usage cases..that's okay too. The key idea is
this, with the Spin SIG and the kickstart pool, community members like
yourself can work on these things, can even build these things via
Fedora infrastructure. The Spin SIG sets defines the quality bar for
what lives in the kickstart pool. Everyone who wants to brand their
spin as a Fedora spin, and we do want people to be able to call these
things Fedora, need to meet the technical and quality bars that the
Spin SIG defines.

And you know what else, over time, as we get more comfortable with usb
as a delivery mechanism and the size of affordable usb thumb drives
continues to go up this will impact what we think of as space limits
on a spin and people will push beyond the cd or dvd size boundary and
target there spin images for usb keys...that's okay to. At that point
you and warren might ba able to merge your efforts..and that would be
wonderful.

But the Fedora Project doesn't have to "release" these sorts of spins
as part of any Fedora Release..even once they are granted access to
the trademark. What does that mean? That means community members need
to find their own hosting to point users to for the spin binaries they
produce. And you know what that is completely okay too. We simply do
not have the resources to host everything that people in our community
want to do. As Spins become more popular and more innovative we will
have to make some hard choices as to which Spins should be part of a
particular Fedora release, every release period. Competition for
scarce resources is the responsible approach to resource management.

And that is where the release process comes in. Spins can be submitted
for release selection..I believe right now that is expected to happen
as part of the Release Feature process..releases are chosen based on
merit and constrained by infrastructure resources set aside for spins.
If a spin isn't part of a release, then it doesn't get official
project hosting..but it can still get trademark access because it
lives in the kickstart pool. It's a compromise that lifts up the best
of the best while still letting new spin development flourish.

-jef

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Old 07-15-2008, 09:05 PM
Sebastian Dziallas
 
Default Fedora Spins and "where will this end?"

Sebastian Dziallas schrieb:

Hi all,

as you may have noticed, there has been a kind of discussion concerning
the future spins for F10 (and later) on this list. I was just drawing up
some statements for a possible Fedora EDU Math Spin [1] (note: this is
just a draft for now), but I think there are some points, which should
be mentioned.


The question I would like to ask is: "Where will all this lead to?"

I need to explain some things:

I created some time ago this roadmap [2] for the education SIG. In one
of our first meetings, we decided to focus first on applications for
mathematical purposes - that's how the idea of this EDU Math spin was
born. On the other hand, I'm aware of the fact (due to some discussions
I had with Warren at the beginning) that there are others, who're
building as well spins: Warren announced a K12LTSP spin including his
LTSP5-work [3], even if I don't know, how the current state is there [4].


So far so good, but what else do we have? The Astronomy SIG is preparing
an astronomy spin, too [5]. And I would bet that there'll be an OLPC (or
more specific: a sugar-based) spin more than soon [6] - this has also
already been mentioned three month ago in one of the education SIG's
meetings [7].


But then, have we already covered all possible topics - even if we stick
with the educational purposes for now? I tend to say no! There might be
still some place for an Fedora Education Language Spin (hey, why don't
why split this one up? - Fedora Education Language English and Fedora
Education Language German spin are awaiting their maintainers!)...


Sorry, this might somehow sound inappropriate, but that is just the way
it is. Don't get me wrong - I'm even myself a member of the Spin SIG and
I applaud everyone's efforts to make use of this innovative technology -
and I'm not going to blame anyone for his/her work, but still: I think
it's obvious that we're going to run into trouble that way...


What do you think?

Sebastian

---

[1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Education
[2] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Education/Roadmap
[3]
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-February/msg00888.html


[4] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/K12Linux
[5] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Astronomy/Spin
[6]
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-July/msg00926.html

[7] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Education/Meetings/2008-05-09


(Yeah, I know, somewhat odd to reply to myself, but there's something to
add)


By the way: I think, the question is also: Who is going to use all these
spins? Is the average user downloading three different education spins?
Or isn't he just moving to another distribution with an all-in-one solution?


We had such a discussion in one of the education SIG meetings...
somebody predicted teachers asking their students to insert spin 17B for
the current lesson.


...just my two cents

Sebastian

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Old 07-15-2008, 09:18 PM
Rahul Sundaram
 
Default Fedora Spins and "where will this end?"

Sebastian Dziallas wrote:


By the way: I think, the question is also: Who is going to use all these
spins? Is the average user downloading three different education spins?
Or isn't he just moving to another distribution with an all-in-one
solution?


That's a false dichotomy. The fundamental qualification to be considered
a Fedora spin is that packages are already part of the Fedora repository
which means that the Fedora already has the all-in-one solution. Spins
merely provide a convenient starting point for those interested. Perhaps
you will be interested in


https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Spins/What_is_a_spin
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Spins

We had such a discussion in one of the education SIG meetings...
somebody predicted teachers asking their students to insert spin 17B for
the current lesson.


If it is a meaningful and valuable spin (as determined by Spin SIG and
others) then that's perfectly fine.


Rahul

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Old 07-15-2008, 09:18 PM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default Fedora Spins and "where will this end?"

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 1:05 PM, Sebastian Dziallas <sebastian@when.com> wrote:
> By the way: I think, the question is also: Who is going to use all these
> spins? Is the average user downloading three different education spins? Or
> isn't he just moving to another distribution with an all-in-one solution?

We will... NEVER... have an all-in-one solution for every possible
usage that can be thought of as a stand alone live image. The
repository is huge and will continue to grow. A Spin image is at best
a starting point meant to address a narrow usage case. If you really
need to do a lot with the operating system, then you will end up
needing to install the operating system and install more software.
Education as a topic can be made as broad as the full extent of our
software catalog without much trouble.

> We had such a discussion in one of the education SIG meetings... somebody
> predicted teachers asking their students to insert spin 17B for the current
> lesson.

Or perhaps we make generating single-purpose spins so easy, that
individual teachers can produce exactly the Fedora Spin they need for
their classroom, with exactly the software they want from a livecd.
Spins are not and will not replace the need to do an installation to
hard disk and install additional packages.

-jef

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Old 07-16-2008, 07:45 PM
Axel Thimm
 
Default Fedora Spins and "where will this end?"

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:31:20PM +0200, Sebastian Dziallas wrote:
> [...] EDU Math spin was born.[...] Warren announced a K12LTSP spin
> including his LTSP5-work [3], even if I don't know, how the current
> state is there [4]. [...] The Astronomy SIG is preparing an
> astronomy spin, too. [...] an OLPC (or more specific: a sugar-based)
> spin more than soon [...] There might be still some place for an
> Fedora Education Language Spin (hey, why don't why split this one
> up? - Fedora Education Language English and Fedora Education
> Language German spin are awaiting their maintainers!)...
>
> Sorry, this might somehow sound inappropriate, but that is just the way
> it is. Don't get me wrong - I'm even myself a member of the Spin SIG and
> I applaud everyone's efforts to make use of this innovative technology -
> and I'm not going to blame anyone for his/her work, but still: I think
> it's obvious that we're going to run into trouble that way...
>
> What do you think?

Personally as a user I'd prefer a less fragmented landscape,
especially in the broader educational institutions like schools.

OTOH the spin technology gets more throughput and gets improved and
astronomers and mathematician, LTSP and OLPC can be on their own
independent release schedules.

So in the end you have a users vs developers problem. But IMHO I'd say
let the spins do their start and then we can discuss about how to merge
them. From a naive POV I would think that for example merging math and
astro/phys spins should be just a collation of package lists and then
maybe a space problem (e.g. no CD spin, straight-to-DVD).

But for some special technolgies like LTSP or OLPC which go beyond
package collations [1] I see a clear need for their own scheduling
until they become standard components.

My advice: Perhaps some spin people don't know that there are similar
spinning efforts (like math and astro folks), and if they do get to
know that they might join up forces. So having a spin coordinator that
introduces the various groups to each other sounds like a good idea
(and sounds like his first name should be Sebastian . But other than
that, if the groups prefer to spin alone, let them and they can still
later discover each other.

[1] I'm not lowering math/astro/lang spins, but LTSP/OLPC are almost
upstream spins hot from development to testing users
--
Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net
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Old 07-16-2008, 08:00 PM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default Fedora Spins and "where will this end?"

2008/7/16 Axel Thimm <Axel.Thimm@atrpms.net>:
> My advice: Perhaps some spin people don't know that there are similar
> spinning efforts (like math and astro folks), and if they do get to
> know that they might join up forces. So having a spin coordinator that
> introduces the various groups to each other sounds like a good idea
> (and sounds like his first name should be Sebastian . But other than
> that, if the groups prefer to spin alone, let them and they can still
> later discover each other.

The Spin SIG and the kickstart pool hosted on fedorahosted should help
make it easier to know about other efforts moving forward. Making
sure spins.fp.org gets the love it needs so it can be attractive and
informative will help as well.

-jef

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Old 07-16-2008, 10:23 PM
Sebastian Dziallas
 
Default Fedora Spins and "where will this end?"

Axel Thimm wrote:

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:31:20PM +0200, Sebastian Dziallas wrote:

[...] EDU Math spin was born.[...] Warren announced a K12LTSP spin
including his LTSP5-work [3], even if I don't know, how the current
state is there [4]. [...] The Astronomy SIG is preparing an
astronomy spin, too. [...] an OLPC (or more specific: a sugar-based)
spin more than soon [...] There might be still some place for an
Fedora Education Language Spin (hey, why don't why split this one
up? - Fedora Education Language English and Fedora Education
Language German spin are awaiting their maintainers!)...

Sorry, this might somehow sound inappropriate, but that is just the way
it is. Don't get me wrong - I'm even myself a member of the Spin SIG and
I applaud everyone's efforts to make use of this innovative technology -
and I'm not going to blame anyone for his/her work, but still: I think
it's obvious that we're going to run into trouble that way...


What do you think?


Personally as a user I'd prefer a less fragmented landscape,
especially in the broader educational institutions like schools.

OTOH the spin technology gets more throughput and gets improved and
astronomers and mathematician, LTSP and OLPC can be on their own
independent release schedules.

So in the end you have a users vs developers problem. But IMHO I'd say
let the spins do their start and then we can discuss about how to merge
them. From a naive POV I would think that for example merging math and
astro/phys spins should be just a collation of package lists and then
maybe a space problem (e.g. no CD spin, straight-to-DVD).

But for some special technolgies like LTSP or OLPC which go beyond
package collations [1] I see a clear need for their own scheduling
until they become standard components.


Agreed! Later, we could consider those mergers... for now, you may be
right that the best way would be to move on and to publish something
first. I also agree concerning those "upstream" spins, but some kind of
discussion cannot be bad, though?!



My advice: Perhaps some spin people don't know that there are similar
spinning efforts (like math and astro folks), and if they do get to
know that they might join up forces. So having a spin coordinator that
introduces the various groups to each other sounds like a good idea
(and sounds like his first name should be Sebastian . But other than
that, if the groups prefer to spin alone, let them and they can still
later discover each other.


Yeah! That's also what I wanted to point out: It was really not my
intention to criticize the Spin SIG's policies or anything like this - I
just wanted to bring this topic to the surface, since I think it should
be mentioned.


I also believe that we need a kind of collaboration between those
groups, which are all acting more or less in the same sector. That's how
we can make sure, that we're not doing the same work two or three times.
Maybe we should even have an IRC meeting concerning this topic soonish,
so that we might get some opinions from the other SIGs and further
interested people.



[1] I'm not lowering math/astro/lang spins, but LTSP/OLPC are almost
upstream spins hot from development to testing users


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Old 07-18-2008, 01:31 AM
Jeroen van Meeuwen
 
Default Fedora Spins and "where will this end?"

Sebastian Dziallas wrote:
By the way: I think, the question is also: Who is going to use all these
spins? Is the average user downloading three different education spins?
Or isn't he just moving to another distribution with an all-in-one
solution?




I'm tempted to create the almighty Everything Spin - this time, a Live Spin.

Kind regards,

Jeroen van Meeuwen
-kanarip

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