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Old 06-22-2008, 09:08 PM
Richard Hughes
 
Default PLEASE SHUT UP! Was: Fedora Freedom and linux-libre

On Thu, 2008-06-19 at 13:26 -0300, Alexandre Oliva wrote:
> Alexandre Oliva http://www.lsd.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/
> Free Software Evangelist oliva@{lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org}
> FSFLA Board Member ¡Sé Libre! => http://www.fsfla.org/

Yup.

> Red Hat Compiler Engineer aoliva@{redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org}

Maybe you could spend more time on compiler design and optimisation than
evangelism? This is really wearing a bit thin with hundreds of emails
with the same tune to this mailing list.

A few more posts about "Fedora Freedom" and I'm unsubscribing from this
mailing list as it's more noise than signal.

This mailing list is for DEVELOPMENT - not about subtle nuances of
licensing. Please create your own mailing list and ask people to
subscribe there instead of bombarding all of us _developers_ with this
garbage.

Thanks,

Richard.


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Old 06-22-2008, 09:12 PM
"Peter Robinson"
 
Default PLEASE SHUT UP! Was: Fedora Freedom and linux-libre

>> Alexandre Oliva http://www.lsd.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/
>> Free Software Evangelist oliva@{lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org}
>> FSFLA Board Member ¡Sé Libre! => http://www.fsfla.org/
>
> Yup.
>
>> Red Hat Compiler Engineer aoliva@{redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org}
>
> Maybe you could spend more time on compiler design and optimisation than
> evangelism? This is really wearing a bit thin with hundreds of emails
> with the same tune to this mailing list.
>
> A few more posts about "Fedora Freedom" and I'm unsubscribing from this
> mailing list as it's more noise than signal.
>
> This mailing list is for DEVELOPMENT - not about subtle nuances of
> licensing. Please create your own mailing list and ask people to
> subscribe there instead of bombarding all of us _developers_ with this
> garbage.

Sounds like a perfect candidate for a SIG!

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Old 06-22-2008, 09:27 PM
drago01
 
Default PLEASE SHUT UP! Was: Fedora Freedom and linux-libre

On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 11:08 PM, Richard Hughes <hughsient@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-06-19 at 13:26 -0300, Alexandre Oliva wrote:
>> Alexandre Oliva http://www.lsd.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/
>> Free Software Evangelist oliva@{lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org}
>> FSFLA Board Member ¡Sé Libre! => http://www.fsfla.org/
>
> Yup.
>
>> Red Hat Compiler Engineer aoliva@{redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org}
>
> Maybe you could spend more time on compiler design and optimisation than
> evangelism? This is really wearing a bit thin with hundreds of emails
> with the same tune to this mailing list.
>
> A few more posts about "Fedora Freedom" and I'm unsubscribing from this
> mailing list as it's more noise than signal.
>
> This mailing list is for DEVELOPMENT - not about subtle nuances of
> licensing. Please create your own mailing list and ask people to
> subscribe there instead of bombarding all of us _developers_ with this
> garbage.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Richard.

Thanks, finally someone said (wrote) it!

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Old 06-25-2008, 01:21 AM
Alexandre Oliva
 
Default PLEASE SHUT UP! Was: Fedora Freedom and linux-libre

On Jun 22, 2008, Richard Hughes <hughsient@gmail.com> wrote:

> Maybe you could spend more time on compiler design and optimisation than
> evangelism? This is really wearing a bit thin with hundreds of emails
> with the same tune to this mailing list.

If you'd read them, you'd know this was already discussed, and it was
pointed out by other developers that the discussion was relevant.
You'd also know that we've covered several different topics, starting
with one that is hardly off-topic, sticking to some that definitely
are, while a few others were indeed better suited for legal, and
others for which there's no better-suited list.

Now, since you have clearly not read the messages you're complaining
about, why are you even annoyed by them? Was it too hard to just
delete them? Do you find the topic particularly disturbing or
welcome, or is it just so annoying to delete this particular thread
with a few messages a day from among the other hundreds of messages
that read this list daily?

Since this is the list where policies are debated, meetings are
called, etc, framing the discussion as unwelcome would almost make it
sound like software freedom is not welcome in Fedora. I realize it's
(unfortunately) not consensus, but I'd hardly believe it's not
something a lot of Fedora developers care about.


Besides, it's kind of silly to wait for the end of the thread to only
then complain about it. Odds are it would result in prologing a dying
discussion, which is precisely what you didn't want.

And then, "shut up or I'll leave" is quite tempting. If you don't
want to participate, just don't. There's no point in going "gimme
what I want or I won't play with you any more"; it sounds as
terrifying as similar threats from my four year old, even though I'm
sure you didn't quite mean it that way. Heh.

Take care,

--
Alexandre Oliva http://www.lsd.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/
Free Software Evangelist oliva@{lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org}
FSFLA Board Member ¡Sé Libre! => http://www.fsfla.org/
Red Hat Compiler Engineer aoliva@{redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org}

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Old 06-25-2008, 02:14 AM
Francis Earl
 
Default PLEASE SHUT UP! Was: Fedora Freedom and linux-libre

> Since this is the list where policies are debated, meetings are
> called, etc, framing the discussion as unwelcome would almost make it
> sound like software freedom is not welcome in Fedora. I realize it's
> (unfortunately) not consensus, but I'd hardly believe it's not
> something a lot of Fedora developers care about.

Actually, I believe the consensus is that Fedora should continue its
ethics and not cave because it'll get more users.

If a user can't figure out how to add Livna to their repo, or makes poor
choices when purchasing hardware, that's not Fedora's problem. Fedora is
about advancing the best software FOSS has to offer, how many users it
has benefits no one!

I think the #1 thing people using or contributing to Fedora care about
are these ideals, although those same ideals say you can use that
software however you wish. Red Hat doesn't go out of its way to make it
difficult to get codecs or drivers etc though, it just doesn't go out of
its way to provide them. Basically, those complaining constantly are
just too lazy to figure out how to do what they want, so why should
people have to see post and post on the lists about it?

It is Ubuntu's place to cave on anything that will get them more users.
Are they extremely popular for doing so? Sure, but what are they really
accomplishing for the FOSS community? They are attracting a whole new
breed of user that doesn't care, and they are gradually making Linux
less fun. I think debates about legal issues, and Fedora's ethics are
pointless and should be moderated in some way. Fedora should never have
to cater to any proprietary software vendor just because users that
don't educate themselves on the reasoning are complaining. It's tedious
to see so many debates about policies when they'll amount to nothing. I
think Fedora would lose more users than it gains by even considering
such things anyway!

The morals and beliefs of Fedora are what brings a lot of users to
Fedora, it is what makes people passionate about Fedora, and they are
what set Fedora apart. I for one paid $200 more for my hardware just to
ensure that my hardware is well supported on Fedora, I should write that
off as wasted money because the vocal minority won't shut up about
technical decisions they don't understand? It is particularly pointless
because there ARE distro's who's sole purpose is to cater to them. They
should stick to those distros and leave Fedora to those passionate about
its beliefs.

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Old 06-25-2008, 08:03 AM
"Yaakov Nemoy"
 
Default PLEASE SHUT UP! Was: Fedora Freedom and linux-libre

Alexandre,

On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 3:21 AM, Alexandre Oliva <aoliva@redhat.com> wrote:
> On Jun 22, 2008, Richard Hughes <hughsient@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Maybe you could spend more time on compiler design and optimisation than
>> evangelism? This is really wearing a bit thin with hundreds of emails
>> with the same tune to this mailing list.
>
> If you'd read them, you'd know this was already discussed, and it was
> pointed out by other developers that the discussion was relevant.
> You'd also know that we've covered several different topics, starting
> with one that is hardly off-topic, sticking to some that definitely
> are, while a few others were indeed better suited for legal, and
> others for which there's no better-suited list.

Could you please make this thread die, immediately if not sooner?
Yes, you are correct that these discussions are relevant to the future
of Free Software, Open Source, Fedora, and any other label you want to
attach to the conversation. However, this presents a few large
problems.

First, Richard Hughes is right. This mailing list is intended for
technical discussions *only*. I'm sure many people on this list are
more than willing to participate in such conversations, and even find
it valuable to do so, but this is the wrong place for it. Period.

Second, there are a number of other mailing lists better suited for
this discussion. Why are you leaving those people out of the
conversation?

Third, this mailing list is highly flammable. Bringing up the issue
*again* about how freedom is important just encourages more posts on
the same topic. People here have had enough of the topic on this list
already. Continuing to defend your decision to post to the wrong
mailing list is only going to drive our developers away from this
mailing list.

So please do us a favour. Either move this conversation to another
mailing list, or just drop it and let it die. If you want to comment
on this message, please discuss it with me off list, or if you really
honestly feel this conversation needs to be in public (and I really
don't,) there is the fedora-advisory-board mailing list. I'm sure
they could 'advise' us both what the correct usage of a development
oriented mailing list is.

-Yaakov

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Old 06-25-2008, 08:31 AM
Richard Hughes
 
Default PLEASE SHUT UP! Was: Fedora Freedom and linux-libre

On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 22:21 -0300, Alexandre Oliva wrote:
> And then, "shut up or I'll leave" is quite tempting. If you don't
> want to participate, just don't.

You are posting this from your @redhat.com email address. As a fellow
Red Hatter, I want you to stop posting from your corporate email, and
instead use something else (maybe oliva@gnu.org might be best). Doing
so makes the community think this is the view of Red Hat, when quite
clearly it's not.

If you are indeed writing these emails in work time, then maybe you and
your manager need to evaluate your priorities better. Sorry to sound
harsh, but I _am_ part of Red Hat and you are making _me_ look bad.

Richard (rhughes_at_redhat_dot_com)


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Old 06-25-2008, 11:04 AM
Josh Boyer
 
Default PLEASE SHUT UP! Was: Fedora Freedom and linux-libre

On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 09:31 +0100, Richard Hughes wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 22:21 -0300, Alexandre Oliva wrote:
> > And then, "shut up or I'll leave" is quite tempting. If you don't
> > want to participate, just don't.
>
> You are posting this from your @redhat.com email address. As a fellow
> Red Hatter, I want you to stop posting from your corporate email, and
> instead use something else (maybe oliva@gnu.org might be best). Doing
> so makes the community think this is the view of Red Hat, when quite
> clearly it's not.

I think you need to give the community more credit. People are
generally aware that email is a personal thing and companies don't make
position statements through individual developers using a work email
address. Particularly when so many other @redhat.com addresses have
objected.

josh

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Old 06-25-2008, 05:46 PM
Alexandre Oliva
 
Default PLEASE SHUT UP! Was: Fedora Freedom and linux-libre

On Jun 25, 2008, Richard Hughes <hughsient@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 22:21 -0300, Alexandre Oliva wrote:
>> And then, "shut up or I'll leave" is quite tempting. If you don't
>> want to participate, just don't.

> You are posting this from your @redhat.com email address. As a fellow
> Red Hatter, I want you to stop posting from your corporate email, and
> instead use something else (maybe oliva@gnu.org might be best). Doing
> so makes the community think this is the view of Red Hat, when quite
> clearly it's not.

That's quite a leap of logic.

It doesn't follow that, if I use say my gmail address, I'm speaking on
behalf of Google; if I post from my GNU address, I was speaking on
behalf of the GNU Project; if I write from my university address, I'm
speaking on behalf of the university; if I post from my FSFLA address,
I'm speaking on behalf of FSFLA; if I post from my ACM or IEEE
addresses, I'm speaking on behalf of these associations; etc, etc.

All of these assumptions would be just as unwarranted as assuming I'm
speaking on behalf of Red Hat.

Even more so when my signature you read and picked on earlier states
I'm a compiler engineer and I'm clearly not talking about compiler
issues. If you look at it, you'll see there's more of 'free software
philosophy activist' in there than there is 'free software code
monkey', which is quite in line with my personal priorities.

> If you are indeed writing these emails in work time,

I'm not, but then I am, but then I'm not. It's hard to tell. Red Hat
formally supports my work at FSFLA, and I work on linux-libre and on
promoting awareness of Free Software for FSFLA, so you could count
that as (voluntary) work time if you wanted to.

But my decision to invest time on this thread, and FSFLA's general
guidance for me to put time into linux-libre and spread awareness of
Free Software issues in general is not something my manager or Red Hat
would have any say on, and it didn't cost Red Hat anything other than
it would have cost if I had used any other e-mail address.

> Sorry to sound harsh,

No reason to apologize.

> but I _am_ part of Red Hat and you are making _me_ look bad.

Now you lost me. Please help me understand what you're getting at.

Why would speaking of Free Software, promoting freedom, clarifying
common misunderstandings of the Free Software philosophy, of copyleft,
and of the GPL, make us look bad? Red Hat does all of that on its
own.

Why would discussing Fedora policies on the mailing list where Fedora
policies are discussed make us bad?

Now, maybe some developers' allergy to policies that are not strictly
technical suggests a need for a mailing lists in which such policies
could be discussed. Of course they'd then be better advised to follow
those lists as well, otherwise they'd not participate in discussions
that would affect them as much as or even more than strictly technical
policies. And then we'd have created a list for the purposes of
either keeping people uninformed about ongoing discussions, or for the
purpose of requiring people to subscribe to multiple lists for the
sake of remaining informed.

None of these sound better than what we have now, and it sounds to me
like the only ways to avoid this kind of argument you've just started
would be to get people to understand that some discussions will take
place that won't be interesting to them, or to rule out certain kinds
of discussions from Fedora.

Based on Fedora's history, I wouldn't expect Fedora to rule out
discussions on moral and ethical principles related with software
freedom, as well as on goals and policies to comply with them, even
when such discussions make some people here uncomfortable.

--
Alexandre Oliva http://www.lsd.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/
Free Software Evangelist oliva@{lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org}
FSFLA Board Member ¡Sé Libre! => http://www.fsfla.org/
Red Hat Compiler Engineer aoliva@{redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org}

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Old 06-25-2008, 06:11 PM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default PLEASE SHUT UP! Was: Fedora Freedom and linux-libre

On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 3:04 AM, Josh Boyer <jwboyer@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think you need to give the community more credit.

I'm not sure I should give the laypress that much credit. I cringe at
the thought of seeing some of this discussion taken out of context and
sensationalized on sites which make a living by selling ads on pages
containing sensationalized articles. But to be honest, this is an
internal employer-employee relationship issue... so its none of my
business.

-jef

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