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Old 06-08-2008, 09:06 PM
Michel Salim
 
Default Packaging question: /usr/share/gnome/help ownership

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/usr/share/gnome/help is owned by yelp. According to the packaging
guidelines, section 1.35: File and Directory Ownership, use case 2:

"there are several instances where it's desirable for multiple packages
to own a directory. Examples of this are:
...
2) Multiple packages have files in a common directory but none of them
requires others.
...
In all cases we are guarding against unowned directories being present
on a system. Unowned directories are affected by the umask of the user
installing the package and thus can be a security risk or lead to
packages which won't run."

For GNOME packages, the consensus as expressed in existing packages
seems to be to assume that yelp is installed, and so individual packages
neither Requires: yelp (since the basic functionality does not depend on
it) nor own /usr/share/gnome/help. Is this not dangerous, though? For
instance, someone running an alternative desktop, and using yum to
install selected GTK/GNOME packages might end up with a dangling
/usr/share/gnome/help if yelp is never installed.

Should applications that put files under /usr/share/gnome/help be
required to own it (or depend on yelp)? In that case, there's a lot of
clean-up to do w.r.t. GNOME packages.

Thanks,

- --
Michel Salim
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Old 06-08-2008, 09:14 PM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default Packaging question: /usr/share/gnome/help ownership

Michel Salim <michel.sylvan <at> gmail.com> writes:
> Should applications that put files under /usr/share/gnome/help be
> required to own it (or depend on yelp)?

Own it maybe, depend on yelp definitely not, at least not in anything which
ends up on the KDE spin (e.g. the system-config-* tools required by Anaconda).
We don't want the whole xulrunner stack on the KDE spin, we don't have room for
it. (We use Konqueror as the browser on the KDE spin, not Firefox.)

Kevin Kofler

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Old 06-09-2008, 01:00 AM
David Timms
 
Default Packaging question: /usr/share/gnome/help ownership

Kevin Kofler wrote:

Michel Salim <michel.sylvan <at> gmail.com> writes:

Should applications that put files under /usr/share/gnome/help be
required to own it (or depend on yelp)?


Own it maybe, depend on yelp definitely not, at least not in anything which
ends up on the KDE spin (e.g. the system-config-* tools required by Anaconda).
We don't want the whole xulrunner stack on the KDE spin, we don't have room for
it. (We use Konqueror as the browser on the KDE spin, not Firefox.)


Would a "yelp-not" package that provides yelp, makes the dirs, but puts
nothing into them solve the issue in a general way ?


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Old 06-09-2008, 05:20 AM
Toshio Kuratomi
 
Default Packaging question: /usr/share/gnome/help ownership

Kevin Kofler wrote:

Michel Salim <michel.sylvan <at> gmail.com> writes:

Should applications that put files under /usr/share/gnome/help be
required to own it (or depend on yelp)?


Own it maybe, depend on yelp definitely not, at least not in anything which
ends up on the KDE spin (e.g. the system-config-* tools required by Anaconda).
We don't want the whole xulrunner stack on the KDE spin, we don't have room for
it. (We use Konqueror as the browser on the KDE spin, not Firefox.)


Err... the last time this came up it was successfully argued that having
"Help" fail to work was a bug. The initial idea was to have something
within the GNOME stack require yelp but I believe that failed because of
circular dependencies.


So if this will cause problems because of system-config-* dragging in
xulrunner we need to come up with some other way of solving the
help-won't-display bug.


-Toshio

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Old 06-09-2008, 11:37 AM
Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams
 
Default Packaging question: /usr/share/gnome/help ownership

On Sun, 2008-06-08 at 22:20 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> Kevin Kofler wrote:
> > Michel Salim <michel.sylvan <at> gmail.com> writes:
> >> Should applications that put files under /usr/share/gnome/help be
> >> required to own it (or depend on yelp)?
> >
> > Own it maybe, depend on yelp definitely not, at least not in anything which
> > ends up on the KDE spin (e.g. the system-config-* tools required by Anaconda).
> > We don't want the whole xulrunner stack on the KDE spin, we don't have room for
> > it. (We use Konqueror as the browser on the KDE spin, not Firefox.)
> >
> Err... the last time this came up it was successfully argued that having
> "Help" fail to work was a bug. The initial idea was to have something
> within the GNOME stack require yelp but I believe that failed because of
> circular dependencies.
>
> So if this will cause problems because of system-config-* dragging in
> xulrunner we need to come up with some other way of solving the
> help-won't-display bug.

What about migrating yelp to WebKit-gtk?

--
Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams <ivazqueznet@gmail.com>

PLEASE don't CC me; I'm already subscribed
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Old 06-09-2008, 11:50 AM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default Packaging question: /usr/share/gnome/help ownership

Toshio Kuratomi <a.badger <at> gmail.com> writes:
> Err... the last time this came up it was successfully argued that having
> "Help" fail to work was a bug. The initial idea was to have something
> within the GNOME stack require yelp but I believe that failed because of
> circular dependencies.
>
> So if this will cause problems because of system-config-* dragging in
> xulrunner we need to come up with some other way of solving the
> help-won't-display bug.

IMHO it is not a bug, help is an optional feature, and we have tight size
constraints on the live images.

We also faced a similar issue with KDE 3 apps dragging in all the KDE 4 stack
because khelpcenter is now from KDE 4, there too (even though this probably
doesn't affect any of the live images) we decided to not put a dependency in
and to simply have help in KDE 3 apps only work if the KDE 4 kdebase-runtime is
installed (which will always be the case in a KDE installation anyway).

Kevin Kofler

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Old 06-09-2008, 05:09 PM
Toshio Kuratomi
 
Default Packaging question: /usr/share/gnome/help ownership

Kevin Kofler wrote:

Toshio Kuratomi <a.badger <at> gmail.com> writes:
Err... the last time this came up it was successfully argued that having
"Help" fail to work was a bug. The initial idea was to have something
within the GNOME stack require yelp but I believe that failed because of
circular dependencies.


So if this will cause problems because of system-config-* dragging in
xulrunner we need to come up with some other way of solving the
help-won't-display bug.


IMHO it is not a bug, help is an optional feature, and we have tight size
constraints on the live images.


We also faced a similar issue with KDE 3 apps dragging in all the KDE 4 stack
because khelpcenter is now from KDE 4, there too (even though this probably
doesn't affect any of the live images) we decided to not put a dependency in
and to simply have help in KDE 3 apps only work if the KDE 4 kdebase-runtime is
installed (which will always be the case in a KDE installation anyway).


Giving a newbie a linux live cd to try without having help files is far
from ideal. Ways to solve the problem are appreciated. Reasons why you
consider it an optional feature rather than an integral part of the user
experience will be listened to and either argued with or create
converts. Merely claiming size constraints is not likely to create
change -- the x86_64 spins of both the live Desktop and live KDE spins
are both larger than a CD already.


-Toshio

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Old 06-09-2008, 07:58 PM
Michel Alexandre Salim
 
Default Packaging question: /usr/share/gnome/help ownership

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Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> Kevin Kofler wrote:
>> Toshio Kuratomi <a.badger <at> gmail.com> writes:
>>> Err... the last time this came up it was successfully argued that
>>> having "Help" fail to work was a bug. The initial idea was to have
>>> something within the GNOME stack require yelp but I believe that
>>> failed because of circular dependencies.
>>>
>>> So if this will cause problems because of system-config-* dragging in
>>> xulrunner we need to come up with some other way of solving the
>>> help-won't-display bug.
>>
>> IMHO it is not a bug, help is an optional feature, and we have tight
>> size constraints on the live images.
>>
>> We also faced a similar issue with KDE 3 apps dragging in all the KDE
>> 4 stack because khelpcenter is now from KDE 4, there too (even though
>> this probably doesn't affect any of the live images) we decided to not
>> put a dependency in and to simply have help in KDE 3 apps only work if
>> the KDE 4 kdebase-runtime is installed (which will always be the case
>> in a KDE installation anyway).
>>
> Giving a newbie a linux live cd to try without having help files is far
> from ideal. Ways to solve the problem are appreciated. Reasons why you
> consider it an optional feature rather than an integral part of the user
> experience will be listened to and either argued with or create
> converts. Merely claiming size constraints is not likely to create
> change -- the x86_64 spins of both the live Desktop and live KDE spins
> are both larger than a CD already.
>
So make yelp Provides: gnome-help-viewer and have packages that have
help files require it instead? That way, live CDs can override this by
having a stub package. Ditto with kdebase-runtime providing kde-help-viewer

(hm, sounds like the next thing for FD.o to standardize: help viewing)

- --
Michel
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Old 06-09-2008, 09:55 PM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default Packaging question: /usr/share/gnome/help ownership

Toshio Kuratomi <a.badger <at> gmail.com> writes:
> the x86_64 spins of both the live Desktop and live KDE spins
> are both larger than a CD already.

No, in Fedora 9 they aren't, due to the removal of all multilib packages by
default, the x86_64 live images are now below 700 MB, but barely. Adding yelp
and its dependencies would put the KDE image well above 700 MB, both for i686
and for x86_64.

Kevin Kofler

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Old 06-09-2008, 10:01 PM
Kevin Kofler
 
Default Packaging question: /usr/share/gnome/help ownership

Michel Alexandre Salim <salimma <at> fedoraproject.org> writes:
> So make yelp Provides: gnome-help-viewer and have packages that have
> help files require it instead? That way, live CDs can override this by
> having a stub package. Ditto with kdebase-runtime providing kde-help-viewer

And what would that broken hack gain us over the GNOME live image simply
pulling in yelp explicitly if they aren't already doing that? I don't think
making packages think a dependency is there when it actually isn't is the right
way to solve problems like this, help won't be any more available with a dummy
yelp than with none at all.

> (hm, sounds like the next thing for FD.o to standardize: help viewing)

That would of course help, but not in the short term.

Kevin Kofler

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