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Old 06-18-2008, 02:43 PM
Anders Karlsson
 
Default Fedora Freedom and linux-libre

* Les Mikesell <lesmikesell@gmail.com> [20080618 15:49]:
> Andrew Haley wrote:
[snip]
>> So, let me summarize: we have a bit of binary-only fimware that does
>> goodness knows what in a critical part of our systems. We don't actually
>> need this firmware; it may or may not improve performance. Is this right?
>
> I don't know if this is correct or varies from device to device but my
> assumption was that most devices would have a version of firmware
> installed when shipped and the drivers are updating to current versions.
>
>> It sounds to me as though we're better off without it, regardless of its
>> status with regard to the GPL.
>
> Perhaps, if you like old buggy versions of firmware...

But Les, it's *much* better not to have the patched firmware. Apart
from pissing off enterprise customers (and seriously, who cares about
them, leeches and scum as they are, ignoring our high horses and
principles) you also have benefits such as:

* an excuse to rant, rave and throw stones at the _obviously_
incompetent NIC manufacturers that shipped the buggy firmware in
EEPROM on the cards in the first place! (We never write buggy code,
oh no Sir, and besides, if we write crap code and you complain
about it, we can tell *you* to fix it, as you have the code!)

* a justification to further spew bile on any and every mailing list
in existance about the evilness of binary blobs, because they could
never ever ever have been created with any other intent than take
away or god-given right to have full access to everything! (But we
won't argue that toss with the Government as they may shoot back.)

</sarcasm tongue_firmly_in_cheek="yup">

/Anders

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Old 06-18-2008, 03:12 PM
Alexandre Oliva
 
Default Fedora Freedom and linux-libre

On Jun 17, 2008, max <maximilianbianco@gmail.com> wrote:

> jeff wrote:

>> *Content??!* It's obviously software. I mean, it can be copied, it
>> can be rewritten (well, by the people in the castle with the code),
>> it can be compiled, etc... Clearly software.

> Firmware usually comes with my devices, it is reloadable but it
> comes with the device when I make the purchase, I don't have to load
> firmware into a device to make it work in the first place.

So, per this logic, MS-Windows OEM is not software. Right?!?

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Old 06-18-2008, 03:14 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Fedora Freedom and linux-libre

max wrote:




That's a question you'd have to direct to the author of that file, who
said that they were. He ought to know.

You based your argument around something you haven't confirmed? That
hardly seems wise but I can't say I have never done the same, lets all
try to avoid this in the future shall we, in such manner are asses
made;^). The author is also a programmer yes? not a lawyer? I am not
sure the author is qualified in the legal sense to make this
determination. The rapid evolution of technologies makes these things
especially difficult. Where can I find his quotes? Are they in the
documentation? I ask because *if* I forward this along I'll get asked
for all this info, it seems quite relevant depending on the basis for
this judgement but IANAL (i have always found this combination of
letters amusing because I think a good lawyer is anal retentive or I
guess any thorough person really, and that's certainly a quality I'd
want in my lawyer :^)


The place to start should probably be with CPU microcode that the kernel
contains and installs. There's a pretty good argument that most of the
other device firmware doesn't become part of 'the Program' and is a
separate thing even when delivered by the kernel. That argument might
be a little harder on the thing actually executing 'the Program', but if
it works there, it should apply to everything else.


My take on it is that it should be the same as downloading a song to an
ipod or other player. Regardless of how you store or encode the bits of
that song on the way to the device, it is still a separate, independent
work and it's just someone else's data bits to the rest of the process
even if that process has the GPL restrictions on its own components.


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Old 06-18-2008, 03:28 PM
Alexandre Oliva
 
Default Fedora Freedom and linux-libre

On Jun 16, 2008, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell@gmail.com> wrote:

> Mistakes happen. Should all old instances disappear when a correction
> is made?

If you keep on distributing GPL-violating code, you'll keep on
losing your license to do so. So, yes, you should stop distributing
the infringing versions to claim you have corrected such a problem.

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Old 06-18-2008, 03:32 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Fedora Freedom and linux-libre

Alexandre Oliva wrote:

On Jun 17, 2008, max <maximilianbianco@gmail.com> wrote:


jeff wrote:



*Content??!* It's obviously software. I mean, it can be copied, it
can be rewritten (well, by the people in the castle with the code),
it can be compiled, etc... Clearly software.



Firmware usually comes with my devices, it is reloadable but it
comes with the device when I make the purchase, I don't have to load
firmware into a device to make it work in the first place.


So, per this logic, MS-Windows OEM is not software. Right?!?


Whether a certain chunk of bits is or isn't software isn't the point.
Would that windows OEM have to become GPL'd if you updated the installed
image with clonezilla or similar copying tool?


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Old 06-18-2008, 03:49 PM
jeff
 
Default Fedora Freedom and linux-libre

Les Mikesell wrote:

max wrote:




That's a question you'd have to direct to the author of that file, who
said that they were. He ought to know.

You based your argument around something you haven't confirmed? That
hardly seems wise but I can't say I have never done the same, lets all
try to avoid this in the future shall we, in such manner are asses
made;^). The author is also a programmer yes? not a lawyer? I am not
sure the author is qualified in the legal sense to make this
determination. The rapid evolution of technologies makes these things
especially difficult. Where can I find his quotes? Are they in the
documentation? I ask because *if* I forward this along I'll get asked
for all this info, it seems quite relevant depending on the basis for
this judgement but IANAL (i have always found this combination of
letters amusing because I think a good lawyer is anal retentive or I
guess any thorough person really, and that's certainly a quality I'd
want in my lawyer :^)


The place to start should probably be with CPU microcode that the kernel
contains and installs. There's a pretty good argument that most of the
other device firmware doesn't become part of 'the Program' and is a
separate thing even when delivered by the kernel. That argument might
be a little harder on the thing actually executing 'the Program', but if
it works there, it should apply to everything else.


My take on it is that it should be the same as downloading a song to an
ipod or other player. Regardless of how you store or encode the bits of
that song on the way to the device, it is still a separate, independent
work and it's just someone else's data bits to the rest of the process
even if that process has the GPL restrictions on its own components.


But they've put the firmware itself under the GPL:

+++ linux-2.6.7.patch/drivers/net/bcm/5701rls.h 2004-06-22 16:00:00.000000000 -0700
@@ -0,0 +1,198 @@
+/************************************************** ****************************/
+/* */
+/* Broadcom BCM5700 Linux Network Driver, Copyright (c) 2000 - 2003 Broadcom */
+/* Corporation. */
+/* All rights reserved. */
+/* */
+/* This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify */
+/* it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by */
+/* the Free Software Foundation, located in the file LICENSE. */
+/* */
+/* History: */
+/************************************************** ****************************/
+
+typedef unsigned long U32;
+int t3FwReleaseMajor = 0x0;
+int t3FwReleaseMinor = 0x0;
+int t3FwReleaseFix = 0x0;
+U32 t3FwStartAddr = 0x08000000;
+U32 t3FwTextAddr = 0x08000000;
+int t3FwTextLen = 0x9c0;
+U32 t3FwRodataAddr = 0x080009c0;
+int t3FwRodataLen = 0x60;
+U32 t3FwDataAddr = 0x08000a40;
+int t3FwDataLen = 0x20;
+U32 t3FwSbssAddr = 0x08000a60;
+int t3FwSbssLen = 0xc;
+U32 t3FwBssAddr = 0x08000a70;
+int t3FwBssLen = 0x10;
+U32 t3FwText[(0x9c0/4) + 1] = {
+0x0,
+0x10000003, 0x0, 0xd, 0xd,
+0x3c1d0800, 0x37bd3ffc, 0x3a0f021, 0x3c100800,
+0x26100000, 0xe000018, 0x0, 0xd,
+0x3c1d0800, 0x37bd3ffc, 0x3a0f021, 0x3c100800,
+0x26100034, 0xe00021c, 0x0, 0xd,
+0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x27bdffe0,
+0x3c1cc000, 0xafbf0018, 0xaf80680c, 0xe00004c,
+0x241b2105, 0x97850000, 0x97870002, 0x9782002c,
+0x9783002e, 0x3c040800, 0x248409c0, 0xafa00014,
+0x21400, 0x621825, 0x52c00, 0xafa30010,
+0x8f860010, 0xe52825, 0xe000060, 0x24070102,
+0x3c02ac00, 0x34420100, 0x3c03ac01, 0x34630100,
+0xaf820490, 0x3c02ffff, 0xaf820494, 0xaf830498,
+0xaf82049c, 0x24020001, 0xaf825ce0, 0xe00003f,
+0xaf825d00, 0xe000140, 0x0, 0x8fbf0018,

... more pages of hex


I personally downloaded this file believing that I was getting a free GPL
driver. Broadcom says so in the patch itself, in the included LICENSE file, and
their website when you click to download it. Red Hat is shipping it as GPLv2.
So either they have to provide the source (if they have it), stop shipping it,
or *at least* stop saying they are shipping a GPLv2 kernel if they are
unwilling/unable to provide the source.


-Jeff

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Old 06-18-2008, 03:58 PM
jeff
 
Default Fedora Freedom and linux-libre

Les Mikesell wrote:

Andrew Haley wrote:

It sounds to me as though we're better off without it, regardless of its
status with regard to the GPL.


Perhaps, if you like old buggy versions of firmware...


Is that what is going on? I thought it was adding TCP offloading[1] or similar.
I didn't think it was replacing anything on the card, but adding "features".
But I'm guessing you have no real idea what it's doing and are just making up
the assertion that it is replacing on board firmware.


Of course, if we want to know what it's doing we can just look at the...oh nvm.

-Jeff

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCP_Offload_Engine

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Old 06-18-2008, 04:02 PM
David Woodhouse
 
Default Fedora Freedom and linux-libre

On Wed, 2008-06-18 at 10:26 -0400, max wrote:
> David Woodhouse wrote:
> > On Wed, 2008-06-18 at 09:07 -0400, max wrote:
> >> David Woodhouse wrote:
> >>> Along with the quotes from one of its authors, who also happens to be
> >>> the overall network driver maintainer for Linux, and has stated that
> >>> each driver and its firmware are 'intimately tied... pieces of a single,
> >>> cohesive whole'.
>
> So the driver and its firmware are indistinct from the whole? You cannot
> tell where the driver and firmware begin and end?

You can't easily tell them apart in the kernel image, no. It's a bit
easier in the driver source, of course.

And of course even if you _can_ still identify the separate sections,
that doesn't mean the GPL wouldn't apply to them. When the GPL talks
about the independent sections which it extends to cover, it actually
refers to them as "_identifiable_ sections of [the collective] work".

Merely being able to _identify_ the various parts isn't sufficient to
claim that they are being distributed 'as separate works'.

When you see a book of short stories, do you claim that it's not a
collective work just because you can tell where one ends and the next
one starts?

> >>>
> >> Why or how have they become "intimately tied"?
> >
> > That's a question you'd have to direct to the author of that file, who
> > said that they were. He ought to know.
> >
> You based your argument around something you haven't confirmed?

Not at all; it doesn't _have_ to be 'intimately tied' for the GPL to
apply to the whole work; my argument isn't at all based on the fact that
they are 'intimately tied'.

I think it's fairly obvious that what we're distributing is a single
cohesive whole which combines both GPL'd kernel code and the firmware.
The argument that they are actually being distributed "as separate
works" is fairly insane, and the claim that it is "mere aggregation on a
volume of a storage or distribution medium" is also extremely
far-fetched, IMO.

To call it 'intimately tied' is an even stronger assertion, and I was
merely pointing out that that's the publicly stated opinion of an expert
in the field (of these drivers), who has actually _created_ a number of
these combined works of driver+firmware. The original copy is here:
http://www.spinics.net/lists/netdev/msg65908.html
cf. http://www.spinics.net/lists/netdev/msg65919.html

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Old 06-18-2008, 04:03 PM
jeff
 
Default Fedora Freedom and linux-libre

Bill Crawford wrote:

If we're content with on-board firmware, what's the harm in shipping
replacement firmware to put on those devices when we boot? *shrug*


No harm if you don't mind proprietary software. Microsoft ships it all the
time. But they don't say they are shipping a GPLv2 kernel in a completely free
operating system, like Fedora does.


-Jeff

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Old 06-18-2008, 05:54 PM
Alexandre Oliva
 
Default Fedora Freedom and linux-libre

On Jun 16, 2008, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell@gmail.com> wrote:

> Alexandre Oliva wrote:
> (although Red Hat seems to ignore this
> part and attach contract restrictions to what they distribute anyway).

Conclusion: you misunderstand both the GPL (as you already proved
before) and the Red Hat service agreements.

> There are patented components that people need

Nothing in the GPL prevents them from getting them. If someone can't
distribute software under the GPL that implements patents, that's
because the patent holder didn't permit the software to be distributed
under the GPL, not because the GPL didn't permit the work to be
distributed under the GPL.

> and components where
> the best implementation is under someone else's copyright.

Nothing in the GPL prevents anyone from distributing software under
anyone else's copyrights. It's copyright law or third-party-imposed
restrictions that do.

> I've explained that the GPL prevents me from sharing original work
> that links to both GPL and non-GPL libraries.

And I've explained that it doesn't, and asked you to cite the passage
of the GPL that prevents you from doing it. You haven't bothered to
do it, and instead decided to keep insisting in this nonsensical
claim. Please stop spreading lies. We're past the point in which you
could claim ignorance as to this point.

> You are deliberately avoiding the point that there is proprietary
> software which is worth what it costs and where the money paid for it
> goes toward improvements.

I don't dispute that it costs money to farm tobacco, manufacture
cigarettes and transport them to points of sale. This doesn't change
the fact that smoking is bad for the smoker's health, and for those in
the vicinity. I don't see that the points are even related. It's
just as irrelevant as whether slavery-based businesses are more or
less profitable. This is a matter of ethics and morals, not
economics.

>> Now, when you accept a license that deprives you from any of the four
>> essential freedoms, this harms you *and* everyone around. You're
>> shooting your own foot, but the shrapnel hurts others.

> No, you are just making this up. Show that it is true for every piece
> of software or admit it is an overgeneralization.
^ non-Free

http://fsfla.org/svnwiki/blogs/lxo/draft/free-software-moral-proof
http://fsfla.org/svnwiki/blogs/lxo/draft/flisol-libre-2008

>>>> See? If my conviction you disputed above is wrong, then the person
>>>> who decides to distribute cigarettes to the kids instead of milk would
>>>> be behaving in accordance with moral and ethics.

>>> Your reasoning requires you to know that cigarettes are harmful and
>>> there is a body of evidence for that,

>> Exactly! So, you now see that your claim that the delivery channel
>> that makes a decision as to what to deliver is amoral didn't resist
>> scrutiny. Good.

> No, I'm saying you have jumped to unwarranted conclusions.

There are two different points here.

1. whether or not the distribution channel can be morally responsible
for what's being distributed in the channel. You've admitted that,
when there is a body of evidence that shows that a product is harmful,
then the distribution channel that chooses to distribute that product
is indeed in moral fault

2. whether or not non-Free Software is harmful

I claimed you agreed to 1. You dispute this claim by disputing 2.
This isn't logically sound.

>> But there is a body of evidence that software that is not Free is
>> harmful. I wouldn't think this is a place where people would dispute
>> this, even if they fail to resist such software themselves.

> I dispute it, and would go so far as to say most free software has
> copied much of its design from commercial/proprietary work (generally
> a good thing!),

Most definitely a good thing, for it enables people who are emprisoned
by the non-Free work to unchain themselves.

> and quite a lot was actually originally developed to
> be proprietary work and later had the free license applied.

Reasonable people will eventually come to their senses, especially if
they place "doing good" over "making profit". And that's a much
simpler fix than having to rewrite it all.

> I'd say that without the proprietary works, free software would
> barely exist and would have much less chance of future development.

You may be basing these guesses on recent past history. But turns out
it's false both for early computing history and for recent computing
history. A lot of the non-Free Software industry these days is
holding up to their Improper Privileges and using that to stop
advances in Free and non-Free competitors. And still we're gaining
ground.

> Can you play Netflix online content?

No idea. What's Netflix? Is it available in Brazil? Why wouldn't I
be able to play its content, does it use any secret formats that were
not reverse engineered into Free Software implementations?
(regardless of patents, most of the patents that cover file formats
apply only in a few countries, so the software that implements them is
Free Software)

> Do you have the optimal video drivers for all available hardware?

I'm happy enough with what I have, but there are times when I wish I
wasn't denied the information that would have enabled me to use the
video hardware better.

> Will your wireless work with all available hardware?

I don't see any reason why this USB stick wouldn't work on any
USB-capable computer running the corresponding 100% Free Software
driver.

> Can you play dvds with what was included?

I installed Free Software programs to do that. I wish Fedora could
ship them, but unfortunately the US laws are unjust and Fedora decides
not to accept the risk of distributing them. If I were to switch from
Fedora to say BLAG, I'd have these programs right out of the box.

>> And then, it's not like I'd drive people to the monster.

> Ummm, where do you expect them to go?

Away from the monster, evidently.

http://fsfla.org/svnwiki/blogs/lxo/draft/freedom-eating-monster

>> My personal choice is just a small drop in the ocean. The
>> moral imperative for me to promote the idea of freedom for all
>> software users goes far beyond whatever individualism you might be
>> trying to imply here.

> Are you sure you only think this about software - or is this a general
> political statement?

It is certainly more general, but I'm working on an area I happened to
become competent on, which might presumably make me more effective in
promoting these ideas.

>> Show me one piece of proprietary software, and you'll have a piece of
>> software that doesn't work perfectly for all its users, and that at
>> least some users would like to be able to improve and/or fix it.

> How is this morally different from hardware?

It isn't, once someone finds a way that enables anyone to copy
hardware (with or without modifications) at nearly-zero cost. Denying
information that would enable someone to do so is just as unethical in
one case as in the other.

> I have at least as many problems with hardware but I don't demand
> that the hardware vendors give me a factory.

Respecting your freedom doesn't mean driving you around to wherever
you like, it's about not putting chains and roadblocks to stop you
from getting to some places you might want to go.

> I've had an equal amount of trouble with free software and having
> source has not meant that I could fix it.

You could still hire someone to do so. You had the choice to do that
or live with what you had. With non-Free Software, someone else makes
that decision for you. That's the difference.

>>> I don't have any different feelings about trusting a company to build
>>> hardware than to supply software.

>> Me neither, actually.

> But there's not a moral difference, nor a more or less evil intent in
> using the same terms.

Agreed.

>> Who's stopping you from distributing the code? I take it you think
>> it's the GPL, but it's not. Look for anything in the GPL that tells
>> you you can't do that.

> It says I can't do that.

Where?

> I can't put it under the GPL if it uses any other components.

And why can't you do that?

> Yes, nothing wrong with that.

(x3)

And still, that's what prevents you from distributing the work you
wanted to distribute, and you complain about it and decide it's GPL's
fault for not bending over to respect your freedom more than others'.
You seem to forget then one's freedom to move their hands ends as it
approaches someone else's nose. Freedom is not about being able to do
whatever you like. When you disrespect others' freedom, you're no
longer operating within your own freedom, you're using power to impose
your choices upon others.

> Because those others don't prohibit combinations.

Still, they aren't enough permission for you to distribute the work
the way you want. Why do you focus your frustration on the GPL?

> The point of getting a proprietary library is to be able to link
> other code with it.

Why do you limit yourself to libraries that are part of development
packages? Most of the non-Free libraries out there are not
distributed for purposes of development, they're just DLLs for sharing
of code among multiple programs.

> It is only the GPL restriction that harmfully prohibits combining
> differently licensed code, taking away the freedom of the recipient
> to choose if terms of those other licenses are acceptable or not.

Repeating it won't make it true. Please quote the portion of the GPL
that establishes this prohibition.

>>> Likewise, I don't consider all commercial/proprietary distributions
>>> to be unethical. Some provide good value for their terms.

>> Slavery was also profitable to the slave owners and advantageous to
>> those who purchased products at lower prices.

> So is normal employment - bad analogy.

Do you consider normal employment unethical? I don't. But I hope we
both agree that slavery is. So, here's agreement that the same end
result may be achievable in both ethical and unethical means. Thus,
there's moral responsibility in that who makes the decision between
behaving ethically or not.

> Which is why applying the GPL is unethical.

Once you realize that your frustration is misdirected, we'll both
agree that current copyright law is unjust, and those who pushed it
into becoming so unjust behaved unethically and immorally.

>>> So how does that work in the case of something like a blu-ray player?
>>
>> Don't even get me started on DRM :-)

> You can't avoid it.

Actually, I can, because I'm lucky to live in a country in which
copyright laws aren't so messed up.

> I'd even say it has a place given that everyone
> involved knows that it devalues the product when applied.

Again, respecting one's freedom to shoot one's own foot doesn't
involve enabling one to force others to get hurt with the shrapnel.

> Without it, you'd have a hard time making a business model out of
> streaming content or low priced subscription/rental access to
> content with a restricted time to live.

You're again mixing up ethics with economics. That a viable business
model requires acting unethically doesn't make it any more acceptable
or justifiable. It just makes it an unethical business, until someone
devises a viable and ethical way to make money with it.

> As a consumer I want those options, although I don't want any usage
> restrictions on anything sold to me in the guise of a product.

Like, "I want farmers to have the option of buying slaves, although I
don't want to buy products manufactured with the participation of
slaves"?

> If by conspiracy you mean legal/licensed terms for intellectual
> property, that is correct whether we like it or not.

Don't get me started with showing that Intellectual Property is BS to
get people to confuse copyrights, trademarks and patents as if they
had anything to do with each other, and as if there was any
resemblance between things you can only share by dividing and things
you can share by multiplying. That's just part of the same conspiracy
that is trying to impose DRM on us.

> The choice is to participate according to the law and licensing terms
> (which may be acceptable) or not. If free software divisively
> prevents participation, users will only have the choice of staying
> with the monopoly.

That who prevents participation is that who imposes the restrictions
that keep people divided and helpless, and keep them from sharing and
building upon existing knowledge and contributing to the common good.

Free Software is the exact opposite of this. Users have the choice of
enslaving themselves to the monopoly, or starting their own, rather
than joining our community, for sure, even if it's a poor choice. But
they don't always get to use our code for that, because of the very
laws that their selfish anti-social mindframe created. Cool, eh? :-)

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