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Old 03-26-2008, 04:33 PM
Bill Nottingham
 
Default few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop

Jonathan Underwood (jonathan.underwood@gmail.com) said:
> > Because it's changing 500 packages, and you can't do the replacement
> > sanely in RPM anyway.
>
> Surely a large proportion of those 500 packages will be rebuilt in the
> F-10 release cycle anyway? However, I don't understand the second
> point you make there?

To do a full /sbin -> /bin migration, you'd need to:

1) Rebuild all packages to change paths
2) Maintain a list of things that are commonly referenced by third-party/local
scripts by path
3) Build a package that provides those symlinks

I fail to see how this is more efficient than just modifying $PATH. (Actually
I fail to see what horribly necessary commands are causing this to be a
big issue, but that's beside the point.)

You can't just symlink /sbin to /bin, because that will blow up RPM
very badly.

Bill

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Old 03-26-2008, 04:38 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop

On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 13:33 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
>
> I fail to see how this is more efficient than just modifying $PATH. (Actually
> I fail to see what horribly necessary commands are causing this to be a
> big issue, but that's beside the point.)

The initial aggrivation list included things like: ifconfig, iw*,
route, showmount, ip, etc...

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Old 03-26-2008, 04:39 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop

Bill Nottingham wrote:
Jonathan Underwood (jonathan.underwood@gmail.com) said:

Why not simplify the world and put everything in /bin and /usr/bin,
making /sbin and /usr/sbin symlinks for backwards compatibility?
Whatever purpose someone thought the s- versions might have ever served
flies out the window when the the administrator and the only user are
one and the same person who is just confused by sometimes having
commands work and sometimes not.

Seems entirely reasonable.


Because it's changing 500 packages, and you can't do the replacement
sanely in RPM anyway.


Why does a package need to know if a directory is a symlink or not
unless it is the one that creates it?


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Old 03-26-2008, 04:44 PM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop

2008/3/26 Jesse Keating <jkeating@redhat.com>:

The initial aggrivation list included things like: *ifconfig, iw*,

route, showmount, ip, etc...


compared to the difficulty of making use of things like route as a user... what is the difficulty of editting the .bash_profile manually to extend the path?

-jef

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Old 03-26-2008, 04:45 PM
"Bill Crawford"
 
Default few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop

On 26/03/2008, Jesse Keating <jkeating@redhat.com> wrote:

> The initial aggrivation list included things like: ifconfig, iw*,
> route, showmount, ip, etc...

Why don't we add symlinks for those in /bin?

The path idea is better.

And finally: usermode helper? You could then try to distinguish
between e.g. route or mount run to display state versus modifying it
(perhaps a shell script which went [ $# -gt 0 ] && exec
/sbin/$whatever ...).

The split is useful in those cases where e.g. the /usr/bin command is
actually different to the one in /sbin.

There is also a similar case for /usr/bin vs /bin (e.g. some OSs
traditionally had very stripped down versions of a few command in
/sbin or /bin, then fuller ones in /usr/bin - trivial example would be
"vi" of course).

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Old 03-26-2008, 04:54 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop

Bill Crawford wrote:


And finally: usermode helper? You could then try to distinguish
between e.g. route or mount run to display state versus modifying it
(perhaps a shell script which went [ $# -gt 0 ] && exec
/sbin/$whatever ...).

The split is useful in those cases where e.g. the /usr/bin command is
actually different to the one in /sbin.


And of course those are all clearly documented so the combo user/admin
is never surprised...


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Old 03-26-2008, 04:55 PM
Will Woods
 
Default few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop

On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 13:38 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 13:33 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> >
> > I fail to see how this is more efficient than just modifying $PATH. (Actually
> > I fail to see what horribly necessary commands are causing this to be a
> > big issue, but that's beside the point.)
>
> The initial aggrivation list included things like: ifconfig, iw*,
> route, showmount, ip, etc...

I actually created a Feature page after a discussion about this on
#fedora-devel earlier this week:

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/SbinSanity

I think it summarizes the problem and (one) proposed solution fairly
well. Feel free to expand/edit it..

Comments?

-w
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Old 03-26-2008, 04:56 PM
"Jonathan Underwood"
 
Default few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop

On 26/03/2008, Bill Nottingham <notting@redhat.com> wrote:
> Jonathan Underwood (jonathan.underwood@gmail.com) said:
>
> > > Because it's changing 500 packages, and you can't do the replacement
> > > sanely in RPM anyway.
> >
> > Surely a large proportion of those 500 packages will be rebuilt in the
> > F-10 release cycle anyway? However, I don't understand the second
> > point you make there?
>
>
> To do a full /sbin -> /bin migration, you'd need to:
>
> 1) Rebuild all packages to change paths
> 2) Maintain a list of things that are commonly referenced by third-party/local
> scripts by path
> 3) Build a package that provides those symlinks
>

Doesn't step 3 render step 2 redundant?

> I fail to see how this is more efficient than just modifying $PATH. (Actually
> I fail to see what horribly necessary commands are causing this to be a
> big issue, but that's beside the point.)
>
> You can't just symlink /sbin to /bin, because that will blow up RPM
> very badly.
>

Why's that? Could/should rpm not be fixed?


J.

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Old 03-26-2008, 05:01 PM
"Jakub 'Livio' Rusinek"
 
Default few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop

Dnia 26-03-2008, śro o godzinie 09:44 -0800, Jeff Spaleta pisze:
>
>
> 2008/3/26 Jesse Keating <jkeating@redhat.com>:
> The initial aggrivation list included things like: ifconfig,
> iw*,
> route, showmount, ip, etc...
>
> compared to the difficulty of making use of things like route as a
> user... what is the difficulty of editting the .bash_profile manually
> to extend the path?

I did this for myself ^^ .

And I'm doing it from FC5...

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Old 03-26-2008, 05:04 PM
Chris Adams
 
Default few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop

Once upon a time, Bill Nottingham <notting@redhat.com> said:
> (Actually
> I fail to see what horribly necessary commands are causing this to be a
> big issue, but that's beside the point.)

I usually add /usr/sbin:/sbin to my PATH for the following commands I
sometimes/often use as a regular user (I can't change things but I can
view current conditions/settings) by what package they come from:

chkconfig:
/sbin/chkconfig

freeipmi:
/usr/sbin/ipmiconsole
/usr/sbin/ipmipower

hardlink:
/usr/sbin/hardlink

iproute:
/sbin/ip

module-init-tools:
/sbin/lsmod
/sbin/modinfo

net-tools:
/sbin/arp
/sbin/ifconfig
/sbin/route

ntp:
/usr/sbin/ntpq

pciutils:
/sbin/lspci

usbutils:
/sbin/lsusb

wireless-tools:
/sbin/iwconfig
/sbin/iwlist

That's just my personal list, based on a quick look through /sbin and
/usr/sbin (I expect there are other commands that other people use as
non-root as well). Some of these commands should probably never have
been in sbin to begin with (ipmiconsole/power, ntpq, etc.).

The sbin directories have been cleaned up some over time (traceroute and
ping for example); maybe it is time for another pass (obviously not now
but maybe for F10).

Some of these might be tricky to change because they may be referenced
with a full path in scripts/programs. For some reason, a bunch of
system stuff (rc.sysint, other init scripts, sysconfig/network-scripts)
seems to use a full path for everything. This isn't really needed,
since virtually all of that sources /etc/init.d/functions first, which
sets a good PATH.

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