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Old 03-26-2008, 12:14 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop

On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 14:13 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote:
> I'll post a RFE in BZ regarding this issue. What component should I
> choose?

Theoretically "distribution" but Will Woods is already working on a
Feature proposal for Fedora 10 to fix this sillyness.

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Old 03-26-2008, 12:15 PM
"Valent Turkovic"
 
Default few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop

On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 12:44 PM, Benny Amorsen <benny+usenet@amorsen.dk> wrote:
> Gian Paolo Mureddu <gmureddu@prodigy.net.mx> writes:
>
> > but being as /sbin paths are meant for administrative tasks, I
> > actually do see having them as part of a regular user's PATH a
> > potential security risk.
>
> Right, we keep them from trying to run dangerous commands by putting
> those commands into a separate directory. Let's just hope they never
> learn to type /sbin/ in front of anything. Maybe we should remove the
> / key from their keyboards, but then they might copy/paste it... What
> to do...
>
>
> /Benny

LOL

+1

You can pull out "/" just leave the "anykey" button

Cheers,
Valent.


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Old 03-26-2008, 12:18 PM
inode0
 
Default few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop

2008/3/26 Jesse Keating <jkeating@redhat.com>:
> On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 12:02 -0600, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote:
> > but being as /sbin paths are
> > meant for administrative tasks, I actually do see having them as part of
> > a regular user's PATH a potential security risk.
>
> That's completely bogus. A "hidden path" offers 0 security. If you
> don't want your users running them, set the permissions on the binary,
> or better yet, have the binary check the EUID of the caller. If
> non-root, display that the command is for root users, but also allow the
> user to get --help and other usage or informational output from the
> command. Just don't allow non-root users to apply anything. There
> really is no reason I can think of to hide this crap in a different
> directory. It just adds needless complication and confusion.

Is Fedora committed to the FHS? Or is Red Hat still committed to it?

The purpose was for root only programs of a certain class to be
located in /sbin for example but including non-root programs there
does muddy the experience for the end user. However I do think it is
cleaner to make those programs available to a user by means other than
adding /sbin to the default path of a normal user. A few links are
cheap. Would links for those in /usr/bin clash with the FHS?

John

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Old 03-26-2008, 12:27 PM
"Debarshi Ray"
 
Default few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop

> That's completely bogus. A "hidden path" offers 0 security. If you
> [...]
> really is no reason I can think of to hide this crap in a different
> directory. It just adds needless complication and confusion.

+1

Why was this (/sbin, /usr/sbin) arrangement used in the first place?

Cheers,
Debarshi
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Old 03-26-2008, 12:28 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop

On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 08:18 -0500, inode0 wrote:
>
> Is Fedora committed to the FHS? Or is Red Hat still committed to it?
>
> The purpose was for root only programs of a certain class to be
> located in /sbin for example but including non-root programs there
> does muddy the experience for the end user. However I do think it is
> cleaner to make those programs available to a user by means other than
> adding /sbin to the default path of a normal user. A few links are
> cheap. Would links for those in /usr/bin clash with the FHS?

I think the idea is to place symlinks in (/usr)/sbin as par of a
fhs-compat package. Otherwise the bins actually go in (/usr)/bin.
"root only" is extremely muddy these days, especially because as
non-root I'd like to explore syntax options and usage statements before
I invoke the command with sudo.

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Old 03-26-2008, 12:30 PM
seth vidal
 
Default few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop

On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 08:18 -0500, inode0 wrote:
> 2008/3/26 Jesse Keating <jkeating@redhat.com>:
> > On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 12:02 -0600, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote:
> > > but being as /sbin paths are
> > > meant for administrative tasks, I actually do see having them as part of
> > > a regular user's PATH a potential security risk.
> >
> > That's completely bogus. A "hidden path" offers 0 security. If you
> > don't want your users running them, set the permissions on the binary,
> > or better yet, have the binary check the EUID of the caller. If
> > non-root, display that the command is for root users, but also allow the
> > user to get --help and other usage or informational output from the
> > command. Just don't allow non-root users to apply anything. There
> > really is no reason I can think of to hide this crap in a different
> > directory. It just adds needless complication and confusion.
>
> Is Fedora committed to the FHS? Or is Red Hat still committed to it?
>
> The purpose was for root only programs of a certain class to be
> located in /sbin for example but including non-root programs there
> does muddy the experience for the end user. However I do think it is
> cleaner to make those programs available to a user by means other than
> adding /sbin to the default path of a normal user. A few links are
> cheap. Would links for those in /usr/bin clash with the FHS?

1. The FHS makes no rules about the default PATH setting for users/root
2. The FHS has no problems with symlinks for the files it requires
in /sbin and /usr/sbin

So changing the defaults away from a 'hidden' /sbin and /usr/sbin would
not violate the FHS.


-sv



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Old 03-26-2008, 12:55 PM
inode0
 
Default few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop

On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 8:30 AM, seth vidal <skvidal@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 08:18 -0500, inode0 wrote:
> > Is Fedora committed to the FHS? Or is Red Hat still committed to it?
> >
> > The purpose was for root only programs of a certain class to be
> > located in /sbin for example but including non-root programs there
> > does muddy the experience for the end user. However I do think it is
> > cleaner to make those programs available to a user by means other than
> > adding /sbin to the default path of a normal user. A few links are
> > cheap. Would links for those in /usr/bin clash with the FHS?
>
> 1. The FHS makes no rules about the default PATH setting for users/root

Oh, I did not mean to imply that it did. My minor objection to getting
rid of /sbin abstractly is that as a normal user I just don't really
want to be exposed to the programs I can't execute in a meaningful way
as a normal user.

> 2. The FHS has no problems with symlinks for the files it requires
> in /sbin and /usr/sbin

I was wondering about whether the FHS objected to "cross linking"
programs that are used by both root and normal users that reside in
/sbin with symlinks in /usr/bin which is in the user's path already?!

John

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Old 03-26-2008, 01:04 PM
seth vidal
 
Default few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop

On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 08:55 -0500, inode0 wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 8:30 AM, seth vidal <skvidal@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> > On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 08:18 -0500, inode0 wrote:
> > > Is Fedora committed to the FHS? Or is Red Hat still committed to it?
> > >
> > > The purpose was for root only programs of a certain class to be
> > > located in /sbin for example but including non-root programs there
> > > does muddy the experience for the end user. However I do think it is
> > > cleaner to make those programs available to a user by means other than
> > > adding /sbin to the default path of a normal user. A few links are
> > > cheap. Would links for those in /usr/bin clash with the FHS?
> >
> > 1. The FHS makes no rules about the default PATH setting for users/root
>
> Oh, I did not mean to imply that it did. My minor objection to getting
> rid of /sbin abstractly is that as a normal user I just don't really
> want to be exposed to the programs I can't execute in a meaningful way
> as a normal user.
>
> > 2. The FHS has no problems with symlinks for the files it requires
> > in /sbin and /usr/sbin
>
> I was wondering about whether the FHS objected to "cross linking"
> programs that are used by both root and normal users that reside in
> /sbin with symlinks in /usr/bin which is in the user's path already?!

Unless there's an addendum I missed they make no comments about it
whatsoever.

-sv


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Old 03-26-2008, 01:13 PM
Alexander Larsson
 
Default few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop

On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 12:42 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 11:54 AM, Alexander Larsson <alexl@redhat.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 11:30 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote:
> > > I have a few ideas that IMO would make Fedora more usable as a general
> > > desktop and developer platform:
> >
> >
> > > 2. have gnome clipboard manager installed by default (glipper gnome applet)
> >
> > This causes all sorts of bad problems.
> > See e.g.:
> > http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gtk-devel-list/2008-March/msg00053.html
>
> Can you explain this in plain english for non-developers. I have been
> using klipper and glipper on gnome for years without any issues so I
> don't get that "all sorts of bad problems" is causes because it works
> perfectly for me.

The thread I linked to contains a couple of real-life examples.

Basically it forces every selection change to be copied to another
process, and the selection changes all the time and can be large. This
can be very slow. It also means you're not able to do smart things when
you cut and paste inside an application (which is the common operation,
and which basically every application uses).

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Old 03-26-2008, 02:04 PM
Bill Nottingham
 
Default few ideas how to make fedora better as a desktop

Jesse Keating (jkeating@redhat.com) said:
> On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 08:18 -0500, inode0 wrote:
> >
> > Is Fedora committed to the FHS? Or is Red Hat still committed to it?
> >
> > The purpose was for root only programs of a certain class to be
> > located in /sbin for example but including non-root programs there
> > does muddy the experience for the end user. However I do think it is
> > cleaner to make those programs available to a user by means other than
> > adding /sbin to the default path of a normal user. A few links are
> > cheap. Would links for those in /usr/bin clash with the FHS?
>
> I think the idea is to place symlinks in (/usr)/sbin as par of a
> fhs-compat package. Otherwise the bins actually go in (/usr)/bin.
> "root only" is extremely muddy these days, especially because as
> non-root I'd like to explore syntax options and usage statements before
> I invoke the command with sudo.

Why not just change the path rather than litter the world with symlinks?

(Also, this is getting offtopic for -desktop rather fast.)

Bill

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