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Old 03-26-2008, 10:50 AM
"Valent Turkovic"
 
Default Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program

On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 10:31 AM, Nils Philippsen <nphilipp@redhat.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 09:23 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote:
> > 2008/3/26 Jesse Keating <jkeating@redhat.com>:
> > > On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 20:09 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote:
> > > > I'm a linux only user and I find "GNU Image Manipulation..." a
> > > > non-sane name, as long as I know about Gimp and in all presentations
> > > > and tutorials the term that is used is Gimp. Look at book covers,
> > > > "Gimp book" not "Gnu image..." is on their covers, try google also...
> > > > let's be practical please.
> > >
> > > I suggest you have this conversation upstream with GIMP since they're
> > > the ones that changed the menu name.
> > >
> >
> > My gut feeling tells me that they will tell that fedora can change the
> > name to gimp if that fits better,
>
> As I already said, this is not practicable as we need to care for all
> languages. AFAIK, we don't have infrastructure for forked translatable
> strings.
>
>
> > most upstream gnome people to who I
> > talked to told me that on such minor things gnome lets downstream
> > customize as they need for them.
> >
> > I'll talk to upstream and report back and tell you if my gut feeling
> > was spot on or wrong.
>
> Do you plan to do that via mail (gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU)
> or via IRC (#gimp @ GIMPNet)? If the latter, it would be nice if you
> could ping me (my nick is "nils") as I may have something to add about
> the technical aspects (.desktop files etc.).
>
>
> Nils

I thought through mailing list but it looks like they have some
problems becase mailing list subscription page seams to be down so I'm
now going to IRC - I'll ping you.

Cheers,
Valent.

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Old 03-26-2008, 12:09 PM
"Valent Turkovic"
 
Default Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program

On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 10:31 AM, Nils Philippsen <nphilipp@redhat.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 09:23 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote:
> > 2008/3/26 Jesse Keating <jkeating@redhat.com>:
> > > On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 20:09 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote:
> > > > I'm a linux only user and I find "GNU Image Manipulation..." a
> > > > non-sane name, as long as I know about Gimp and in all presentations
> > > > and tutorials the term that is used is Gimp. Look at book covers,
> > > > "Gimp book" not "Gnu image..." is on their covers, try google also...
> > > > let's be practical please.
> > >
> > > I suggest you have this conversation upstream with GIMP since they're
> > > the ones that changed the menu name.
> > >
> >
> > My gut feeling tells me that they will tell that fedora can change the
> > name to gimp if that fits better,
>
> As I already said, this is not practicable as we need to care for all
> languages. AFAIK, we don't have infrastructure for forked translatable
> strings.
>
>
> > most upstream gnome people to who I
> > talked to told me that on such minor things gnome lets downstream
> > customize as they need for them.
> >
> > I'll talk to upstream and report back and tell you if my gut feeling
> > was spot on or wrong.
>
> Do you plan to do that via mail (gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU)
> or via IRC (#gimp @ GIMPNet)? If the latter, it would be nice if you
> could ping me (my nick is "nils") as I may have something to add about
> the technical aspects (.desktop files etc.).
>
>
> Nils

I was wrong.

Developers want this so that "GNU Image Manipulation Program" name
gets more know. I argued that that is killing their already
established "GIMP" brand name but that is it. They also said that
Fedora could always patch it if that is what Fedora Project decides...

My personal opinions still stands but at lease we know what is the
upstream opinion regarding naming.

Cheers,
Valent.

--
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Old 03-26-2008, 01:15 PM
Nils Philippsen
 
Default Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program

On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 12:32 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 10:49 +0100, Nils Philippsen wrote:
> > On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 17:06 +0100, Robi wrote:
> > > So why don't you just put:
> > > "GNU Image Manipulation Program (GIMP)", "Internet messenger (Pidgin)"
> > > etc.... Everybody happy, right?
> >
> > Weeell. This would mean that somebody would have to whip the GNOME panel
> > into shape first so that it actually displays "Generic Name (Name)".
> > Then everybody and their uncle would have to fix desktop files which
> > have generic names as "Name" to work around that deficiency. Kind of a
> > catch-22 if you ask me. Perhaps we should propose that as a feature for
> > F10.
> From a quick look into my menu it seems like now most of the software
> installed in gnome by default use "Name Generic Name" in their desktop
> files (like Epiphany Web Browser), which I think is the best way to do
> that. But I am well aware that other people might think otherwise.

The bad thing is that this is often done by having "Name=Name
GenericName" and having no GenericName instead of keeping those
separate. We really should get that situation fixed for F10, i.e. so
that the desktop files use Name, GenericName consistently (as per spec)
and the desktop environments (i.e. panels e.a.) use these as per spec.

> The problem with GIMP is however that GNU Image Manipulation Program is
> not a generic name but it's full name (GIMP is just an acronym). And
> while the long name is quite suited for standalone usage (i.e. without
> the generic name part displayed) GIMP might be better for the long
> variant, though I am not certainly sure what would its generic name be,
> perhaps "Raster Graphics Editor" (following the example of "Inkscape
> Vector Graphics Editor").

I've just talked to upstream about this and they're not too happy about
(ab)using the system with "Name=GIMP" and "GenericName=GNU Image
Manipulation Program". Perhaps the spec should be extended to have an
AbbreviatedName key, so gimp.desktop could have:

...
AbbreviatedName=GIMP
Name=GNU Image Manipulation Program
GenericName=Image Manipulation Program
Comment=Manipulate your images
...

GenericName could even be left empty as it's a subset of Name. The menus
could then have it (based on if the user prefers short or long names)
like this:

Name/AbbreviatedName (GenericName)

or alternatively (if there is not GenericName)

Name/AbbreviatedName

and the comment as the tooltip of the menu entry. This would even work
with legacy (Name and GenericName combined into Name) desktop files.

> But I agree with Nicu that the most important thing is consistency. It
> indeed would make sense to propose that as a feature for F10, regardless
> which format for display we decide to use... And if such a feature would
> be indeed proposed, I think it should be worked on with upstream as much
> as possible.

Yes.

Nils
--
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Old 03-26-2008, 02:06 PM
"Valent Turkovic"
 
Default Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program

On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 3:15 PM, Nils Philippsen <nphilipp@redhat.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 12:32 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote:
> > On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 10:49 +0100, Nils Philippsen wrote:
> > > On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 17:06 +0100, Robi wrote:
> > > > So why don't you just put:
> > > > "GNU Image Manipulation Program (GIMP)", "Internet messenger (Pidgin)"
> > > > etc.... Everybody happy, right?
> > >
> > > Weeell. This would mean that somebody would have to whip the GNOME panel
> > > into shape first so that it actually displays "Generic Name (Name)".
> > > Then everybody and their uncle would have to fix desktop files which
> > > have generic names as "Name" to work around that deficiency. Kind of a
> > > catch-22 if you ask me. Perhaps we should propose that as a feature for
> > > F10.
> > From a quick look into my menu it seems like now most of the software
> > installed in gnome by default use "Name Generic Name" in their desktop
> > files (like Epiphany Web Browser), which I think is the best way to do
> > that. But I am well aware that other people might think otherwise.
>
> The bad thing is that this is often done by having "Name=Name
> GenericName" and having no GenericName instead of keeping those
> separate. We really should get that situation fixed for F10, i.e. so
> that the desktop files use Name, GenericName consistently (as per spec)
> and the desktop environments (i.e. panels e.a.) use these as per spec.
>
>
> > The problem with GIMP is however that GNU Image Manipulation Program is
> > not a generic name but it's full name (GIMP is just an acronym). And
> > while the long name is quite suited for standalone usage (i.e. without
> > the generic name part displayed) GIMP might be better for the long
> > variant, though I am not certainly sure what would its generic name be,
> > perhaps "Raster Graphics Editor" (following the example of "Inkscape
> > Vector Graphics Editor").
>
> I've just talked to upstream about this and they're not too happy about
> (ab)using the system with "Name=GIMP" and "GenericName=GNU Image
> Manipulation Program". Perhaps the spec should be extended to have an
> AbbreviatedName key, so gimp.desktop could have:
>
> ...
> AbbreviatedName=GIMP
> Name=GNU Image Manipulation Program
> GenericName=Image Manipulation Program
> Comment=Manipulate your images
> ...
>
> GenericName could even be left empty as it's a subset of Name. The menus
> could then have it (based on if the user prefers short or long names)
> like this:
>
> Name/AbbreviatedName (GenericName)
>
> or alternatively (if there is not GenericName)
>
> Name/AbbreviatedName
>
> and the comment as the tooltip of the menu entry. This would even work
> with legacy (Name and GenericName combined into Name) desktop files.
>
>
> > But I agree with Nicu that the most important thing is consistency. It
> > indeed would make sense to propose that as a feature for F10, regardless
> > which format for display we decide to use... And if such a feature would
> > be indeed proposed, I think it should be worked on with upstream as much
> > as possible.
>
> Yes.
>
>
>
> Nils

Correct me if I'm wrong but they said that GenericName should be "Image Editor"

and for the rest of this +1 from me.

Cheers,
Valent.


--
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linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless
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Old 03-26-2008, 03:51 PM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program

On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 12:23 AM, Valent Turkovic <valent.turkovic@gmail.com> wrote:

My gut feeling tells me that they will tell that fedora can change the

name to gimp if that fits better, most upstream gnome people to who I

talked to told me that on such minor things gnome lets downstream

customize as they need for them.



I'll talk to upstream and report back and tell you if my gut feeling

was spot on or wrong.



whether we are allowed to do it or not is not the point.

The argue you made was about brand recognition. As a downstream, should we be telling the upstream project how their brand should be handled?* I really don't think so. We all recognize that brands have value because they are recognizable. But if a specific project wants to change their brand..that is THEIR choice..because its THEIR project.


As distributors of 'well known' applications... we need to take our cues from the upstream project with regard to handling 'branding'. Perhaps the project leads for GIMP are actually trying to make an explicit effort to rebrand it so the non acronym becomes the recognized name. If so, then we should respect that.* If you want this changed... get the upstream project to revert back to using the GIMP as the name instead of the longer name in the desktop file.* For all we know this is a deliberate attempt to rebrand by the upstream project.


Arguing about adding useful functional descriptions to how we generally list applications is one thing. And arguing that we should hide all non-functional names is another thing worthy of discourse. But to delibrately reinterpret or shorten the chosen* project name* because it doesn't suite us is quite another. Talk to the GIMP project authors and figure out what they intend concerning branding. Don't make unilateral decisions over interpretations of application names.* We've already recognized that this is a brand issue...at that point you MUST seek clarification as to what the upstream project intends in terms of branding.


Hey I know let's revert firefox back to firebird and forget that the
project deliberately rebranded even though the firebird name was widely
used for the browser up to that point.

-jef"While we are at it, let's change the name of rhythmbox to rbox in Fedora, because I consistently misspell rhythm."spaleta

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Old 03-27-2008, 08:09 AM
"Valent Turkovic"
 
Default Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program

2008/3/26 Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta@gmail.com>:
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 12:23 AM, Valent Turkovic
> <valent.turkovic@gmail.com> wrote:
> > My gut feeling tells me that they will tell that fedora can change the
> > name to gimp if that fits better, most upstream gnome people to who I
> > talked to told me that on such minor things gnome lets downstream
> > customize as they need for them.
> >
> > I'll talk to upstream and report back and tell you if my gut feeling
> > was spot on or wrong.
> >
>
>
> whether we are allowed to do it or not is not the point.
>
> The argue you made was about brand recognition. As a downstream, should we
> be telling the upstream project how their brand should be handled? I really
> don't think so. We all recognize that brands have value because they are
> recognizable. But if a specific project wants to change their brand..that is
> THEIR choice..because its THEIR project.
>
> As distributors of 'well known' applications... we need to take our cues
> from the upstream project with regard to handling 'branding'. Perhaps the
> project leads for GIMP are actually trying to make an explicit effort to
> rebrand it so the non acronym becomes the recognized name. If so, then we
> should respect that. If you want this changed... get the upstream project
> to revert back to using the GIMP as the name instead of the longer name in
> the desktop file. For all we know this is a deliberate attempt to rebrand
> by the upstream project.

After speaking with upstream it seams that that is the case. They want
more recognition of the name "GNU Image Manipulation Program" and even
if I personally think that is wrong I respect their decision. Fedora
has "respect upstream" attitude so it should respect their decision...

Cheers,
Valent.

--
http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/
linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless
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ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic

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Old 03-27-2008, 09:01 AM
Gian Paolo Mureddu
 
Default Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program

Valent Turkovic escribió:

After speaking with upstream it seams that that is the case. They want
more recognition of the name "GNU Image Manipulation Program" and even
if I personally think that is wrong I respect their decision. Fedora
has "respect upstream" attitude so it should respect their decision...

Cheers,
Valent.




/disclaimer: The following comment is only a rant, disregard as easily,
I had to get it out of my chest:


While we are at it, decomposing acronyms why call it "GNU Image
Manipulation Program" at all, why not call it "GNU is Not Unix Image
Manipulation Program", instead? Geeze!... I know, I know it is none of
my business, but this looks like RMS-type of crusade to get the "GNU"
brand better recognized as "Linux" took off much more than "GNU"


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Old 03-27-2008, 11:32 AM
"Valent Turkovic"
 
Default Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program

On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 11:01 AM, Gian Paolo Mureddu
<gmureddu@prodigy.net.mx> wrote:
> Valent Turkovic escribió:
>
> > After speaking with upstream it seams that that is the case. They want
> > more recognition of the name "GNU Image Manipulation Program" and even
> > if I personally think that is wrong I respect their decision. Fedora
> > has "respect upstream" attitude so it should respect their decision...
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Valent.
> >
> >
>
> /disclaimer: The following comment is only a rant, disregard as easily,
> I had to get it out of my chest:
>
> While we are at it, decomposing acronyms why call it "GNU Image
> Manipulation Program" at all, why not call it "GNU is Not Unix Image
> Manipulation Program", instead? Geeze!... I know, I know it is none of
> my business, but this looks like RMS-type of crusade to get the "GNU"
> brand better recognized as "Linux" took off much more than "GNU"

That is exactly how I feel.

Cheers,
Valent.

--
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Old 03-27-2008, 03:40 PM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program

On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 2:01 AM, Gian Paolo Mureddu <gmureddu@prodigy.net.mx>
While we are at it, decomposing acronyms why call it "GNU Image

Manipulation Program" at all, why not call it "GNU is Not Unix Image

Manipulation Program", instead? Geeze!... I know, I know it is none of

my business, but this looks like RMS-type of crusade to get the "GNU"

brand better recognized as "Linux" took off much more than "GNU"



Because the exact branding is the upstream project's decision.* FULL STOP.
You can bitch and moan all you like.. but do it upstream.* If the upstream project wants to spell out GNU... then they get to do it.* If they want to change the name completely with every release...they get to do it.* I will not excuse any more pointless ranting on a fedora list about this just because its easy for you to do here. If you care about it..write upstream. And if you don't care about it.. zip it.


What we get to decide is whether we are going to use the Proper project name or whether we are going to use the Generic Name in our menu.. or both... and how consistently we do either across our applicationscape.* The Proper project name is what it is, and its the project's choice.* The generic name I feel we have some ability to tweak if needed. In this case that's really not an issue.*


-jef"will probably be writing to upstream himself concerning branding"spaleta

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Old 03-28-2008, 08:48 AM
Nils Philippsen
 
Default Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program

On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 16:06 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote:

> Correct me if I'm wrong but they said that GenericName should be "Image Editor"

Whatever they set in the desktop file for that is fine with me. My
posting was more about that an AbbreviatedName key would be a good thing
to have for those types of users who do know which application they
seek.

Nils
--
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"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary
Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759
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