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Old 03-25-2008, 03:06 PM
Robi
 
Default Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 4:41 PM, Nils Philippsen <nphilipp@redhat.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 2008-03-24 at 20:55 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> > previous fedora versions had "Gimp" as entry in "open with" gnome menu
> > and now it is "GNU Image Manipulation Program".
> >
> > What do you think is better "Gimp" or "GNU Image Manipulation Program"
> > for a name in the menu?
> >
> > Also in Gnome Aplications menu there is "GNU Image Manipulation Program"
> > but most people know only about Gimp to that can be confusing.
>
> This is how upstream does it and I'm very much inclined not to change
> that as this would mean that we would have to care for the translation
> of that string.
>
> Upstream might change it for 2.6 but defaults to leave it as it is
> unless somebody comes forward with compelling reasons to change it
> again.
>
>
> Nils
> --
> Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp@redhat.com
> "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary
> Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759
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>
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> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list
>

I don't know about you guys, but I like seeing the programs name in
menus and I hate to see ONLY program description like a name... that's
why I'm always renaming the entire menu....
In my opinion there should be some popup description text when mouse
over the program's name.... But that's gnome issue...

So why don't you just put:
"GNU Image Manipulation Program (GIMP)", "Internet messenger (Pidgin)"
etc.... Everybody happy, right?
Besides that, there's Google who knows everything for users who don't ......

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Old 03-25-2008, 04:21 PM
Martin Sourada
 
Default Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program

On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 09:46 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote:
> Matej Cepl wrote:
> > On 2008-03-24, 23:46 GMT, Brian Pepple wrote:
> >> I believe this is a question for upstream, since as far as I'm
> >> aware we don't modify the name in the supplied desktop file.
> >
> > OK, than IMHO this is stupid, but their problem.
>
> I'll argue this is *our* problem. The Fedora Desktop is not just a bunch
> of packages thrown together, it is supposed to be more than that: have
> consistency and a vision behind it.
>
> As a long time GIMP user, with my memory muscle trained to find it in
> the menu, it was a pain for me (and I sill have not recovered
> completely) to launch it, I still look for The Gimp and see GNU something.
>
> Here is how the Graphics menu looks on my F8 desktop:
> Agave
> FontForge
> Fyre
> GNU Image Manipulation Program
> gThumb Image Viewer
> Inkscape Vector Graphics Editor
> ScannerTool
>
> Quite inconsistent, but if I would try to apply some logic, it would
> look like the application name is "GNU" and the description is "Image
> Manipulation Program".
>
> --
> nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com
> Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/
> Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org
> my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro
>
I'd prefer to have the long names in menu, consistently... I believe GNU
Image Manipulation Program is saner to have in menu then GIMP, but when
it changed it also gave me lot of pain and to see it changing again...
well... I got used to find this one by icon recently...

BUT, I believe, isn't the GNU Image Manipulation Program the official
long name for GIMP?

And yeah, a lot of windows users use gimp, but on the other side a lot
of linux users don't know about gimp. Therefore I think it's better to
use the long version - it actually tells what the program does and users
already familiar with gimp either know the long counterpart or are able
to find it looking at the icons...

Martin
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Old 03-25-2008, 06:09 PM
"Valent Turkovic"
 
Default Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program

2008/3/25 Martin Sourada <martin.sourada@gmail.com>:
>
>
> On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 09:46 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote:
> > Matej Cepl wrote:
> > > On 2008-03-24, 23:46 GMT, Brian Pepple wrote:
> > >> I believe this is a question for upstream, since as far as I'm
> > >> aware we don't modify the name in the supplied desktop file.
> > >
> > > OK, than IMHO this is stupid, but their problem.
> >
> > I'll argue this is *our* problem. The Fedora Desktop is not just a bunch
> > of packages thrown together, it is supposed to be more than that: have
> > consistency and a vision behind it.
> >
> > As a long time GIMP user, with my memory muscle trained to find it in
> > the menu, it was a pain for me (and I sill have not recovered
> > completely) to launch it, I still look for The Gimp and see GNU something.
> >
> > Here is how the Graphics menu looks on my F8 desktop:
> > Agave
> > FontForge
> > Fyre
> > GNU Image Manipulation Program
> > gThumb Image Viewer
> > Inkscape Vector Graphics Editor
> > ScannerTool
> >
> > Quite inconsistent, but if I would try to apply some logic, it would
> > look like the application name is "GNU" and the description is "Image
> > Manipulation Program".
> >
> > --
> > nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com
> > Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/
> > Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org
> > my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro
> >
> I'd prefer to have the long names in menu, consistently... I believe GNU
> Image Manipulation Program is saner to have in menu then GIMP, but when
> it changed it also gave me lot of pain and to see it changing again...
> well... I got used to find this one by icon recently...
>
> BUT, I believe, isn't the GNU Image Manipulation Program the official
> long name for GIMP?
>
> And yeah, a lot of windows users use gimp, but on the other side a lot
> of linux users don't know about gimp. Therefore I think it's better to
> use the long version - it actually tells what the program does and users
> already familiar with gimp either know the long counterpart or are able
> to find it looking at the icons...
>
> Martin

I'm a linux only user and I find "GNU Image Manipulation..." a
non-sane name, as long as I know about Gimp and in all presentations
and tutorials the term that is used is Gimp. Look at book covers,
"Gimp book" not "Gnu image..." is on their covers, try google also...
let's be practical please.

Cheers,
Valent.

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Old 03-25-2008, 11:57 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program

On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 20:09 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote:
> I'm a linux only user and I find "GNU Image Manipulation..." a
> non-sane name, as long as I know about Gimp and in all presentations
> and tutorials the term that is used is Gimp. Look at book covers,
> "Gimp book" not "Gnu image..." is on their covers, try google also...
> let's be practical please.

I suggest you have this conversation upstream with GIMP since they're
the ones that changed the menu name.

--
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Old 03-26-2008, 05:53 AM
Nicu Buculei
 
Default Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program

Martin Sourada wrote:


I'd prefer to have the long names in menu, consistently... I believe GNU
Image Manipulation Program is saner to have in menu then GIMP, but when
it changed it also gave me lot of pain and to see it changing again...
well... I got used to find this one by icon recently...


I have my own preferences too, but what I think is a lot more important
than one's preferences is to have consistency: either consistently use
long names for all the applications in the menu or consistently use
short names. Make a choice and stick with it.

Otherwise it hurts our desktop and hurts our distro.

Do we have any usability person still subscribed to the list?

--
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Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/
Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org
my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro

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Old 03-26-2008, 07:23 AM
"Valent Turkovic"
 
Default Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program

2008/3/26 Jesse Keating <jkeating@redhat.com>:
> On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 20:09 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote:
> > I'm a linux only user and I find "GNU Image Manipulation..." a
> > non-sane name, as long as I know about Gimp and in all presentations
> > and tutorials the term that is used is Gimp. Look at book covers,
> > "Gimp book" not "Gnu image..." is on their covers, try google also...
> > let's be practical please.
>
> I suggest you have this conversation upstream with GIMP since they're
> the ones that changed the menu name.
>

My gut feeling tells me that they will tell that fedora can change the
name to gimp if that fits better, most upstream gnome people to who I
talked to told me that on such minor things gnome lets downstream
customize as they need for them.

I'll talk to upstream and report back and tell you if my gut feeling
was spot on or wrong.

Valent.

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Old 03-26-2008, 07:24 AM
"Valent Turkovic"
 
Default Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program

On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 7:53 AM, Nicu Buculei <nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro> wrote:
> Martin Sourada wrote:
> >
> > I'd prefer to have the long names in menu, consistently... I believe GNU
> > Image Manipulation Program is saner to have in menu then GIMP, but when
> > it changed it also gave me lot of pain and to see it changing again...
> > well... I got used to find this one by icon recently...
>
> I have my own preferences too, but what I think is a lot more important
> than one's preferences is to have consistency: either consistently use
> long names for all the applications in the menu or consistently use
> short names. Make a choice and stick with it.
> Otherwise it hurts our desktop and hurts our distro.

+1

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Old 03-26-2008, 08:31 AM
Nils Philippsen
 
Default Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program

On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 09:23 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote:
> 2008/3/26 Jesse Keating <jkeating@redhat.com>:
> > On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 20:09 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote:
> > > I'm a linux only user and I find "GNU Image Manipulation..." a
> > > non-sane name, as long as I know about Gimp and in all presentations
> > > and tutorials the term that is used is Gimp. Look at book covers,
> > > "Gimp book" not "Gnu image..." is on their covers, try google also...
> > > let's be practical please.
> >
> > I suggest you have this conversation upstream with GIMP since they're
> > the ones that changed the menu name.
> >
>
> My gut feeling tells me that they will tell that fedora can change the
> name to gimp if that fits better,

As I already said, this is not practicable as we need to care for all
languages. AFAIK, we don't have infrastructure for forked translatable
strings.

> most upstream gnome people to who I
> talked to told me that on such minor things gnome lets downstream
> customize as they need for them.
>
> I'll talk to upstream and report back and tell you if my gut feeling
> was spot on or wrong.

Do you plan to do that via mail (gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU)
or via IRC (#gimp @ GIMPNet)? If the latter, it would be nice if you
could ping me (my nick is "nils") as I may have something to add about
the technical aspects (.desktop files etc.).

Nils
--
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"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary
Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759
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Old 03-26-2008, 08:49 AM
Nils Philippsen
 
Default Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program

On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 17:06 +0100, Robi wrote:
> So why don't you just put:
> "GNU Image Manipulation Program (GIMP)", "Internet messenger (Pidgin)"
> etc.... Everybody happy, right?

Weeell. This would mean that somebody would have to whip the GNOME panel
into shape first so that it actually displays "Generic Name (Name)".
Then everybody and their uncle would have to fix desktop files which
have generic names as "Name" to work around that deficiency. Kind of a
catch-22 if you ask me. Perhaps we should propose that as a feature for
F10.

> Besides that, there's Google who knows everything for users who don't ......

This is a particularly poor argument ;-P.

Usually, if you don't already know what application you need to use, you
look into the menu to find out what's there. I'd hazard a guess and
claim that the majority of people won't search Google for more than
three with names like "KDVI", "UFRaw", "Xfig"(*) to find what they want.
If they don't find it, they give up in frustration and return to Windows
or MacOS -- which aren't inherently better, but since you have to
install much of the software by yourself, you're kinda bound to know
what it's called.

(*): Two of these use Name and GenericName as layed out in the spec(**),
guess which ;-)
(**): http://standards.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/latest/ar01s05.html

Nils
--
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Old 03-26-2008, 10:32 AM
Martin Sourada
 
Default Gimp vs GNU Image Manipulation Program

On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 10:49 +0100, Nils Philippsen wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 17:06 +0100, Robi wrote:
> > So why don't you just put:
> > "GNU Image Manipulation Program (GIMP)", "Internet messenger (Pidgin)"
> > etc.... Everybody happy, right?
>
> Weeell. This would mean that somebody would have to whip the GNOME panel
> into shape first so that it actually displays "Generic Name (Name)".
> Then everybody and their uncle would have to fix desktop files which
> have generic names as "Name" to work around that deficiency. Kind of a
> catch-22 if you ask me. Perhaps we should propose that as a feature for
> F10.
From a quick look into my menu it seems like now most of the software
installed in gnome by default use "Name Generic Name" in their desktop
files (like Epiphany Web Browser), which I think is the best way to do
that. But I am well aware that other people might think otherwise.

The problem with GIMP is however that GNU Image Manipulation Program is
not a generic name but it's full name (GIMP is just an acronym). And
while the long name is quite suited for standalone usage (i.e. without
the generic name part displayed) GIMP might be better for the long
variant, though I am not certainly sure what would its generic name be,
perhaps "Raster Graphics Editor" (following the example of "Inkscape
Vector Graphics Editor").

But I agree with Nicu that the most important thing is consistency. It
indeed would make sense to propose that as a feature for F10, regardless
which format for display we decide to use... And if such a feature would
be indeed proposed, I think it should be worked on with upstream as much
as possible.

Martin
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