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Old 06-06-2011, 02:57 PM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default Service enabled by default

On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 15:50:11 +0300,
Elad <elad@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> Live media does not make sense for servers at all. When you install a

Sure it does. Live images make nice rescue images.

> Most desktop users are not enterprise users, and enterprise users are
> skilled enough to enable the services they need themselves or create
> their own live media with the packages and configurations they need
> for their environment.

Not having live images just work is a very poor experience.

Disabling services that support hardware by default is not the appropriate
way forward.
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Old 06-06-2011, 03:10 PM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default Service enabled by default

On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 10:11:40 -0500,
Michael Cronenworth <mike@cchtml.com> wrote:
> Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> > Disabling services that support hardware by default is not the appropriate
> > way forward.
>
> I think you misread his email, Bruno.
>
> For example: Most people don't need LLDP turned on, and I can say that
> with certainty unless there is a huge data center following and we cater
> exclusively to them. It's things like this that end up polluting Fedora
> boot over time and /that/ is not the appropriate way forward.

Supporting rarely used hardware is hardly catering to exclusive groups.
It is actually being more inclusive. Running the services isn't directly
a problem. There was a concern, because at least one of these services
was using a significant amount of CPU time even when there was no matching
hardware attached. These are the kind of issues that need to be addressed.
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Old 06-06-2011, 03:11 PM
Michael Cronenworth
 
Default Service enabled by default

Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> Disabling services that support hardware by default is not the appropriate
> way forward.

I think you misread his email, Bruno.

For example: Most people don't need LLDP turned on, and I can say that
with certainty unless there is a huge data center following and we cater
exclusively to them. It's things like this that end up polluting Fedora
boot over time and /that/ is not the appropriate way forward.
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Old 06-06-2011, 03:27 PM
Michael Cronenworth
 
Default Service enabled by default

Bruno Wolff III on 06/06/2011 10:10 AM wrote:
> Supporting rarely used hardware is hardly catering to exclusive groups.
> It is actually being more inclusive. Running the services isn't directly
> a problem. There was a concern, because at least one of these services
> was using a significant amount of CPU time even when there was no matching
> hardware attached. These are the kind of issues that need to be addressed.

Point missed again.

LLDP[1] has nothing to do with hardware support.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_Layer_Discovery_Protocol
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Old 06-06-2011, 03:46 PM
Michael Cronenworth
 
Default Service enabled by default

Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> LLDP[1] has nothing to do with hardware support.

When I read the proper context, enabling FCoE, LLDP seems to be required.

Perhaps this needs to be moved into NetworkManager and used if an FCoE
card is setup instead of boot.
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Old 06-06-2011, 04:09 PM
Elad
 
Default Service enabled by default

On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 5:57 PM, Bruno Wolff III <bruno@wolff.to> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 15:50:11 +0300,
> *Elad <elad@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>> Live media does not make sense for servers at all. When you install a
>
> Sure it does. Live images make nice rescue images.
>
We have anaconda rescue mode for that. again, the desktop spin is not
intended for servers.
It is intended for desktop, that's why it's called desktop spin.
>> Most desktop users are not enterprise users, and enterprise users are
>> skilled enough to enable the services they need themselves or create
>> their own live media with the packages and configurations they need
>> for their environment.
>
> Not having live images just work is a very poor experience.
>
> Disabling services that support hardware by default is not the appropriate
> way forward.
>



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Old 06-06-2011, 05:44 PM
Bill Nottingham
 
Default Service enabled by default

Elad (elad@fedoraproject.org) said:
> Live media does not make sense for servers at all. When you install a
> server, you want to control exactly what is going to be installed,
> which is impossible with live media.
> Furthermore, the default live media is the Desktop spin, which means -
> it is for desktop! not servers! You can suggest a server spin if you
> want.

FWIW, the *distributed* Live media certainly doesn't make sense for
servers. However, I do know of server deployments that run off their own
customized live images that are pulled from a central server. Of course,
those are likely to be site-specific customziations.

(And this is all pretty far afield for the desktop list...)

Bill
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Old 06-06-2011, 05:56 PM
Elad
 
Default Service enabled by default

On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 8:44 PM, Bill Nottingham <notting@redhat.com> wrote:
> Elad (elad@fedoraproject.org) said:
>> Live media does not make sense for servers at all. When you install a
>> server, you want to control exactly what is going to be installed,
>> which is impossible with live media.
>> Furthermore, the default live media is the Desktop spin, which means -
>> it is for desktop! not servers! You can suggest a server spin if you
>> want.
>
> FWIW, the *distributed* Live media certainly doesn't make sense for
> servers. However, I do know of server deployments that run off their own
> customized live images that are pulled from a central server. Of course,
> those are likely to be site-specific customziations.
>
> (And this is all pretty far afield for the desktop list...)
>
> Bill
> --
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> desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
>
Yes, that's what I meant.
What I'm trying to say is that the *desktop* spin shouldn't have
anything that is completely useless on a typical desktop.


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Old 06-07-2011, 02:23 AM
Evandro Giovanini
 
Default Service enabled by default

Em Seg, 2011-06-06 ąs 11:08 +0000, "Jóhann B. Gušmundsson" escreveu:
> I think it's time for the Gnome desktop team to revisit and review which
> services are enabled by default on the livecd/usb and enable only those
> that benefit the novice desktop end user.
>
> Alot of services are enabled by default that are aimed at enterprise
> users and to some extend enterprise hardware usages which would never be
> used on a regular desktop/tablet/notebook pc like for example fcoe,
> lldpad, iscsi, iscsid, mdmonitor etc. which administrators should enable
> encase they use it in their enterprise environment.
>
> A bit of discussion about this is happening in bug 707553
>

I believe this problem is mostly fixed with the adoption of systemd,
where services are started on-the-fly, as needed.


Evandro

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Old 06-07-2011, 10:56 AM
Evandro Giovanini
 
Default Service enabled by default

Em Ter, 2011-06-07 ąs 06:52 +0000, "Jóhann B. Gušmundsson" escreveu:
> On 06/07/2011 02:23 AM, Evandro Giovanini wrote:
> > Em Seg, 2011-06-06 ąs 11:08 +0000, "Jóhann B. Gušmundsson" escreveu:
> >> I think it's time for the Gnome desktop team to revisit and review which
> >> services are enabled by default on the livecd/usb and enable only those
> >> that benefit the novice desktop end user.
> >>
> >> Alot of services are enabled by default that are aimed at enterprise
> >> users and to some extend enterprise hardware usages which would never be
> >> used on a regular desktop/tablet/notebook pc like for example fcoe,
> >> lldpad, iscsi, iscsid, mdmonitor etc. which administrators should enable
> >> encase they use it in their enterprise environment.
> >>
> >> A bit of discussion about this is happening in bug 707553
> >>
> > I believe this problem is mostly fixed with the adoption of systemd,
> > where services are started on-the-fly, as needed.
>
> Systemd does not magically make all service start when needed.
>
> There is a bit more work that needs to be done on the service and
> application end to make that happen and last time I checked only few
> services did so and certainly not all service will...
>
> JBG

Yes, these services and applications would have to be ported over to
actually make use of systemd. Sorry I wasn't clear.


Evandro

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