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Old 06-21-2011, 12:27 AM
Adam Williamson
 
Default Proposal: Too similar application names

On Mon, 2011-06-06 at 06:14 -0400, Vitezslav Humpa wrote:

> > As a compromise between getting rid of the problem (user
> annoyance...)
> > completely and the amount of work that would have to be done, I
> suggest
> > that we simply target these applications and modify the desktop
> files
> > so that they become distinguishable. That means in the menus and on
> the
> > first sight, whatever *.desktop field is responsible for that in
> particular
> > environments. Should we manage to push having a popup in Upstream,
> that
> > would be great later on.
>
> I agree, this is a good starting point. I don't really see the point
> of the popups,
> but if other folks think they're necessary, I won't argue.

Just as a note on this one, I found that a bug is already filed for the
most infamous case, Software Update / Software Updates:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=702772

and has been passed on to upstream:

https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=649823

I hope Richard will be able to get to that soon.

That leaves terminal / Terminal, and all the system-config-* vs.
control-center components (things like Date & Time are identical between
the two). That seems a larger problem than just the menu entries,
though. There's kind of a demarcation question here; GNOME seems to have
decided various settings should be controlled by the desktop, and Fedora
probably needs to decide where it stands on that, whether all our other
desktop environments agree, and how to deal with overlapping tools for
such settings from all standpoints, not just menu entries. Where we
agree that something should be handed off from s-c-* to desktop control,
we should check on the current status of what the s-c-* app is capable
of and whether the GNOME app can do all the same stuff, and whether the
other desktops make it possible to deal with the same settings, I guess.

(I wonder if it might be good for there to be a cross-desktop list
within Fedora, for things that concern all desktop environments? This
cross-posting gets unwieldy.)
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Old 06-21-2011, 12:35 AM
Adam Williamson
 
Default Proposal: Too similar application names

On Mon, 2011-06-20 at 17:27 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:

> Just as a note on this one, I found that a bug is already filed for the
> most infamous case, Software Update / Software Updates:
>
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=702772
>
> and has been passed on to upstream:
>
> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=649823
>
> I hope Richard will be able to get to that soon.
>
> That leaves terminal / Terminal,

Filed a bug for this one:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=714835
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Old 06-23-2011, 03:50 PM
Vitezslav Humpa
 
Default Proposal: Too similar application names

> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=649823
>
> I hope Richard will be able to get to that soon.

It's great that stones are moving on this one! It's been the most
obvious one. Did you bring this to Richard already or should I reach
him? Not sure now

> That leaves terminal / Terminal, and all the system-config-* vs.
> control-center components (things like Date & Time are identical
> between
> the two). That seems a larger problem than just the menu entries,
> though. There's kind of a demarcation question here; GNOME seems to
> have
> decided various settings should be controlled by the desktop, and
> Fedora
> probably needs to decide where it stands on that, whether all our
> other
> desktop environments agree, and how to deal with overlapping tools for
> such settings from all standpoints, not just menu entries. Where we
> agree that something should be handed off from s-c-* to desktop
> control,
> we should check on the current status of what the s-c-* app is capable
> of and whether the GNOME app can do all the same stuff, and whether
> the
> other desktops make it possible to deal with the same settings, I
> guess.

I went through config utilities across different environments. In some
cases definitely the s-c-* are being relied to for configuration
completely, notably in cases of LXDE and Xfce too. Sometimes they
overlap with the desktop environment specific utilities, but do the
configuring in different scopes - e.g. s-c-keyboard will set the global
system layout while xfce4 keyboard settings does it session-wise. Well,
I'd say there is no point discussing the future of s-c-* utilities in
respect to these environments, they are needed.

Gnome(and KDE), perhaps with some exceptions, seem to cover s-c-*
options rather well. I think we should consider simply removing the
conflicting s-c-* from the menus altogether, thus getting rid of the
duplicity. Should the user need to access these particular s-c-*
utilities, they will still be present in the system.

These are the ones, that are duplicate to the gnome-control-panel tools:
system-config-date (Date & Time vs. Date and Time)
system-config-printer (Printing vs. Printers)
system-config-users (Users and Groups vs. User Accounts)

Thoughts?

> (I wonder if it might be good for there to be a cross-desktop list
> within Fedora, for things that concern all desktop environments? This
> cross-posting gets unwieldy.)

+1, with danger of not too many people subscribing for it which could
bring back the need to "cc" again

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Old 06-23-2011, 04:59 PM
Adam Williamson
 
Default Proposal: Too similar application names

On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 11:50 -0400, Vitezslav Humpa wrote:

> Gnome(and KDE), perhaps with some exceptions, seem to cover s-c-*
> options rather well. I think we should consider simply removing the
> conflicting s-c-* from the menus altogether, thus getting rid of the
> duplicity. Should the user need to access these particular s-c-*
> utilities, they will still be present in the system.
>
> These are the ones, that are duplicate to the gnome-control-panel tools:
> system-config-date (Date & Time vs. Date and Time)
> system-config-printer (Printing vs. Printers)
> system-config-users (Users and Groups vs. User Accounts)
>
> Thoughts?

Need to check that the GNOME / KDE tools can set these things
system-wide (usually done via PolicyKit integration I think), but in
principle, yes. Well, rather than remove them from the menus, we could
make them NotShowIn (or whatever the keyword is) GNOME and KDE.
Desktop / KDE teams, wdyt?
--
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Old 06-23-2011, 05:21 PM
Bastien Nocera
 
Default Proposal: Too similar application names

On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 09:59 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 11:50 -0400, Vitezslav Humpa wrote:
>
> > Gnome(and KDE), perhaps with some exceptions, seem to cover s-c-*
> > options rather well. I think we should consider simply removing the
> > conflicting s-c-* from the menus altogether, thus getting rid of the
> > duplicity. Should the user need to access these particular s-c-*
> > utilities, they will still be present in the system.
> >
> > These are the ones, that are duplicate to the gnome-control-panel tools:
> > system-config-date (Date & Time vs. Date and Time)
> > system-config-printer (Printing vs. Printers)
> > system-config-users (Users and Groups vs. User Accounts)
> >
> > Thoughts?
>
> Need to check that the GNOME / KDE tools can set these things
> system-wide (usually done via PolicyKit integration I think), but in
> principle, yes. Well, rather than remove them from the menus, we could
> make them NotShowIn (or whatever the keyword is) GNOME and KDE.
> Desktop / KDE teams, wdyt?

I would really rather they weren't installed at all, but that would do
fine in the meanwhile.

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Old 06-23-2011, 06:00 PM
Adam Williamson
 
Default Proposal: Too similar application names

On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 18:21 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:

> > Need to check that the GNOME / KDE tools can set these things
> > system-wide (usually done via PolicyKit integration I think), but in
> > principle, yes. Well, rather than remove them from the menus, we could
> > make them NotShowIn (or whatever the keyword is) GNOME and KDE.
> > Desktop / KDE teams, wdyt?
>
> I would really rather they weren't installed at all, but that would do
> fine in the meanwhile.

Well, I don't see why we shouldn't do both. Don't install 'em by default
for GNOME and KDE spins, *and* make 'em NotShowIn desktops where they're
not really needed, so that if people install them for use in Xfce or
LXDE or whatever, they don't show up in GNOME or KDE.
--
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Old 06-24-2011, 08:42 AM
Bastien Nocera
 
Default Proposal: Too similar application names

On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 11:00 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 18:21 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote:
>
> > > Need to check that the GNOME / KDE tools can set these things
> > > system-wide (usually done via PolicyKit integration I think), but in
> > > principle, yes. Well, rather than remove them from the menus, we could
> > > make them NotShowIn (or whatever the keyword is) GNOME and KDE.
> > > Desktop / KDE teams, wdyt?
> >
> > I would really rather they weren't installed at all, but that would do
> > fine in the meanwhile.
>
> Well, I don't see why we shouldn't do both.

On the install DVD, you can do that. Not on the live CD where you'll end
up with all the anaconda deps, and they're in it.

> Don't install 'em by default
> for GNOME and KDE spins, *and* make 'em NotShowIn desktops where they're
> not really needed, so that if people install them for use in Xfce or
> LXDE or whatever, they don't show up in GNOME or KDE.

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Old 06-24-2011, 10:48 AM
Vitezslav Humpa
 
Default Proposal: Too similar application names

> > > Need to check that the GNOME / KDE tools can set these things
> > > system-wide (usually done via PolicyKit integration I think), but
> > > in
> > > principle, yes. Well, rather than remove them from the menus, we
> > > could
> > > make them NotShowIn (or whatever the keyword is) GNOME and KDE.
> > > Desktop / KDE teams, wdyt?
> >
> > I would really rather they weren't installed at all, but that would
> > do
> > fine in the meanwhile.

I wouldn't remove them completely *just yet* at least for the GNOME
spin - as the s-c-* utilities offer little extra configurability not
provided by the control panel applets yet (I checked for the 3
menu-duplicate items in particular), though generally they seem to
intersect nicely(but not completely) both in features and scope.
Additionally there are also some dependencies to them (notably anaconda
and firstboot for s-c-date, s-c-users and s-c-keyboard...)

When it comes to KDE spin, I see no point in keeping them as
systemsettings currently provides for then just fine. Exception being
again s-c-* needed for firstboot.

> Well, I don't see why we shouldn't do both. Don't install 'em by
> default
> for GNOME and KDE spins, *and* make 'em NotShowIn desktops where
> they're
> not really needed, so that if people install them for use in Xfce or
> LXDE or whatever, they don't show up in GNOME or KDE.

Definitely. I will try out how the NotShowIn / OnlyShowIn works in
practice in different desktop environments.

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Old 06-27-2011, 01:11 PM
Vitezslav Humpa
 
Default Proposal: Too similar application names

Adamw:
>>>> That leaves terminal / Terminal, and all the system-config-* vs.
>>>> control-center components (things like Date & Time are identical between
>>>> the two). That seems a larger problem than just the menu entries,
>>>> though. There's kind of a demarcation question here; GNOME seems to have
>>>> decided various settings should be controlled by the desktop, and Fedora
>>>> probably needs to decide where it stands on that, whether all our other
>>>> desktop environments agree, and how to deal with overlapping tools for
>>>> such settings from all standpoints, not just menu entries. Where we
>>>> agree that something should be handed off from s-c-* to desktop control,
>>>> we should check on the current status of what the s-c-* app is capable
>>>> of and whether the GNOME app can do all the same stuff, and whether the
>>>> other desktops make it possible to deal with the same settings, I guess.

Vhumpa:
>>> I went through config utilities across different environments. In some
>>> cases definitely the s-c-* are being relied to for configuration
>>> completely, notably in cases of LXDE and Xfce too. Sometimes they
>>> overlap with the desktop environment specific utilities, but do the
>>> configuring in different scopes - e.g. s-c-keyboard will set the global
>>> system layout while xfce4 keyboard settings does it session-wise. Well,
>>> I'd say there is no point discussing the future of s-c-* utilities in
>>> respect to these environments, they are needed.

>>> Gnome(and KDE), perhaps with some exceptions, seem to cover s-c-*
>>> options rather well. I think we should consider simply removing the
>>> conflicting s-c-* from the menus altogether, thus getting rid of the
>>> duplicity. Should the user need to access these particular s-c-*
>>> utilities, they will still be present in the system.

>>> These are the ones, that are duplicate to the gnome-control-panel tools:
>>> system-config-date (Date & Time vs. Date and Time)
>>> system-config-printer (Printing vs. Printers)
>>> system-config-users (Users and Groups vs. User Accounts)

Bnocera:
>> I would really rather they weren't installed at all, but that would do
>> fine in the meanwhile.

Adamw:
> Well, I don't see why we shouldn't do both. Don't install 'em by default
> for GNOME and KDE spins, *and* make 'em NotShowIn desktops where they're
> not really needed, so that if people install them for use in Xfce or
> LXDE or whatever, they don't show up in GNOME or KDE.

I've toyed with NotShowIn for the 3 utilities above and it looks like
it makes them hidden just fine. In case when I put NotShowIn multiple
times, e.g. once for GNOME and once for KDE, the setting gets ignored
by GNOME (KDE honours it). Although that is not a problem now, as it
looks like we want to hide these just in GNOME, as it was suggested
that KDE settings do not provide system-wide configuration.

Thus - would you guys agree to make the 3 duplicate system-config-*
utilities "NotShowIn" in GNOME? And if so, what steps should we take to
make this so?

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Old 07-13-2011, 02:55 PM
John Dulaney
 
Default Proposal: Too similar application names

>I've toyed with NotShowIn for the 3 utilities above and it looks like
>it makes them hidden just fine. In case when I put NotShowIn
>multiple
times, e.g. once for GNOME and once for KDE, the setting
>gets ignored
by GNOME (KDE honours it). Although that is not a
>problem now, as it
looks like we want to hide these just in GNOME,
>as it was suggested
that KDE settings do not provide system-wide
>configuration.
>Thus - would you guys agree to make the 3 duplicate system-config-*
>utilities "NotShowIn" in GNOME? And if so, what steps should we take
>to
make this so?


Hey, Desktop Team,
What's the status of this?
John

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