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Old 04-14-2011, 12:17 PM
bookwar
 
Default customization of themes and colors in gnome 3 desktop in Fedora 15

Hello everyone,

I would like to raise up the question of possibilities user have to
customize the look and feel of his desktop. And let us limit our
consideration to Fedora 15 release only. I don't have enough
information to speak about future plans and their realization yet.

1) Why this is important:

After one week of testing gnome-shell and Gnome3 by community i've
made a list of things people complain most in Gnome3 (Fortunately this
list contains only cosmetic issues. Many thanks to gnome developers
for that.)

The list is:

- window titlebar size
Window titles of the same color as a window background, without much
meaning since they have only one button, make almost everyone think
about wasting vertical space. This very expensive vertical space which
is already taken by "top bar".

- icon size in Applications menu
The bug is here https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=636655.
And discussion is still open.

- color scheme
Dark black-blue default color scheme with deep shadows seems to be
too dark and grim for many users. Once I published the light grey
version of default gnome-shell, at least 10 users changed their mind
about Gnome3 and decided to try it.

- fonts
Default fonts are bad for non-english speaking users, who work with
non-Latin characters.
Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=695405 still open.

( After three days of using gnome-shell i fixed all four and made this
picture to promote Gnome 3 http://www.linux.org.ru/gallery/6144374.jpg
And people do like it. )

I don't want to open discussion with designers team here. Artwork is
always controversial, so let default setting be as they are now,
except may be fedora logo improvement suggested here:
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/design-team/2011-April/004215.html
. Please, consider it.

I want to emphasize that changing default settings is not an
exceptional use-case for F15 Gnome users. It is a normal thing which
will be used very often.

2) The gnome-developers point of view

I have found these opinions on theming the gnome desktop:

Bastien Nocera said at
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2011-March/msg00059.html
================================================== =============
Changing either theme or font would detract from our visual identity.
And we also cannot offer users to switch to different themes and expect
all those themes to be of the high quality one would expect from the one
shipped in GNOME 3. My guess is that if you're willing to possibly break
the appearance of a number of applications, we want to make it clear
that you shouldn't start filing bugs against whichever product offered
you that ability.

There are however some missing parts to the customisation that we might
want to revisit, such allowing users to tweak colours, but this would
need to be designed, and thought out.
================================================== ==============

Owen Taylor said at
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=647686
================================================== ==============
>From the perspective of the GNOME Shell team, GNOME Shell themes are
both not interesting and not supportable
================================================== ==============

If I understood correctly, this means that till at least Gnome 3.2,
may be later, user is not supposed to do all the things I mentioned in
1). Although this may be reasonable from developers point of view
(they have a lot of more important things to do), I think from the
point of Fedora 15 it is wrong. Things that i listed above have much
more impact on the end-user experience then integration of empathy
into desktop environment, for example. Desktop settings are urgent for
user-oriented distro release.

3) What I think Fedora Desktop and Fedora QA Team could and should do
in this case.

Fortunately, current gnome-shell does have tools to solve almost all
the problems. But what is needed to be done is to change their
priority from "strange things no one cares about" to the "must(or at
least nice) to have in current release".

I suggest

a) state that theming _is_ a feature of Gnome 3 Desktop in F15

b) add gnome-tweaks-tool to the default @gnome-desktop group of
packages, put it on Live images and so on
Probably add gnome-shell user-theme extension package by default also.

c) raise the priority and help with the bugs

https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=647599 user-theme
extension: support globally installed extension
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=644271 [PATCH] Add
extension that prefers local theme to system theme
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=647386 [PATCH] The
user-theme extension doesn't revert to the original theme immediately

and others in gnome-tweak-tools component.

d) consider to add gnome-tweak-tool's bugs as a blocker or
nice-to-have or any other good status in Red Hat Bugzilla.

--
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Old 04-15-2011, 02:05 AM
Dagan McGregor
 
Default customization of themes and colors in gnome 3 desktop in Fedora 15

On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 14:17:09 +0200, bookwar wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I would like to raise up the question of possibilities user have to
> customize the look and feel of his desktop. And let us limit our
> consideration to Fedora 15 release only. I don't have enough
> information to speak about future plans and their realization yet.
>
> 1) Why this is important:
>
> After one week of testing gnome-shell and Gnome3 by community i've
> made a list of things people complain most in Gnome3 (Fortunately
> this
> list contains only cosmetic issues. Many thanks to gnome developers
> for that.)
>
> The list is:
>
> - window titlebar size
> Window titles of the same color as a window background, without much
> meaning since they have only one button, make almost everyone think
> about wasting vertical space. This very expensive vertical space
> which
> is already taken by "top bar".

The greatest shame about the GNOME Shell is that it's meant to be an
improvement over previous UIs, and do things in a better way.
Unfortunately, the stance of the developers is going to put a lot of
people off, especially with the horrendously oversized window titlebar
size.

It's the first thing I noticed and complained about when I used GNOME
Shell for the first time. Screens are getting wider, they're not getting
taller. Vertical space *should be used as sparingly as possible*.

There are a number of designers porting 3rd party GNOME themes,
whether these are officially supported or not, and people will install
them. Not providing tools by default, or making the process overly
complex will just mean people risk more breaking their desktops, to get
a desktop that they're happy looking at.

Does it really need to be that hard?

Users will say no, and vote with their feet, to another distribution.

Dagan
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Old 04-15-2011, 02:49 PM
"Paul W. Frields"
 
Default customization of themes and colors in gnome 3 desktop in Fedora 15

[removing some subjective critique I'm not qualified to rebut, even
though it seems adequately addressed by design docs I've read]

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 02:17:09PM +0200, bookwar wrote:
> - icon size in Applications menu
> The bug is here https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=636655.
> And discussion is still open.

Probably needs a different bug open upstream explaining the problem,
then, since the massive ellipsization problem the bug references seems
to be fixed, AFAICT.

[...snip...]
> - fonts
> Default fonts are bad for non-english speaking users, who work with
> non-Latin characters.
> Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=695405 still open.

Fair enough, the Cantarell font is missing some glyph coverage. Why
not organize a team to help extend that, since it would be more useful
globally? Perhaps there's already a move afoot for this, because
certainly the same can be said of Asian languages.

[...snip...]
> I want to emphasize that changing default settings is not an
> exceptional use-case for F15 Gnome users. It is a normal thing which
> will be used very often.

What measurements do you have to support this assertion?

[...snip...]
> I suggest
>
> a) state that theming _is_ a feature of Gnome 3 Desktop in F15

Not only is it too late to be adding features in at this point, but
it's not even established this one is needed.

> b) add gnome-tweaks-tool to the default @gnome-desktop group of
> packages, put it on Live images and so on
> Probably add gnome-shell user-theme extension package by default also.

This tool should only be useful for a small subset of the people
expected to use GNOME 3 and Fedora 15. Including it by default would
be confusing to the rest because they wouldn't know in what cases
they'd use it. A cursory glance at the settings in that tool shows
they're clearly not understandable to a large swath of people who
don't spend a lot of time with operating system internals.

--
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Old 04-15-2011, 04:42 PM
Aleksandra Bookwar
 
Default customization of themes and colors in gnome 3 desktop in Fedora 15

>> *The bug is here https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=636655.
>> And discussion is still open.
>
> Probably needs a different bug open upstream explaining the problem,
> then, since the massive ellipsization problem the bug references seems
> to be fixed, AFAICT.

The ellipsization problem is fixed but this "fix" as a design solution
is still disussed there. I can file a new bug on this, but I am afraid
it will be closed as a duplicate or notabug feature.

Bug or not, this problem exists in current Gnome desktop. And changing
gnome-shell theme is the only workaround we have.

>> - fonts
>> *Default fonts are bad for non-english speaking users, who work with
>> non-Latin characters.
>> *Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=695405 still open.
>
> Fair enough, the Cantarell font is missing some glyph coverage. *Why
> not organize a team to help extend that, since it would be more useful
> globally? *Perhaps there's already a move afoot for this, because
> certainly the same can be said of Asian languages.

Again, even this is a bug, it exists in current Gnome desktop, and
there is no hope that it will be fixed before F15 release. And
gnome-tweak-tool provides the only workaround for Asian, Russian and
other not so small communities.

>> I want to emphasize that changing default settings is not an
>> exceptional use-case for F15 Gnome users. It is a normal thing which
>> will be used very often.
>
> What measurements do you have to support this assertion?

If the four issues listed don't make it evident for you, I want to
reformulate this question as follows: What measurements will you be
satisfied with?

I have a number of people I talked with directly, IRC logs from both
#fedora-qa and #gnome-shell channels, maillist discussions, forum
threads, blog posts, deviant-art group and Google Search results. I
can calculate the number of non-english speaking users also.

How many links should I provide? Or should we organize some public voting?

>> b) add gnome-tweaks-tool to the default @gnome-desktop group of
>> packages, put it on Live images and so on
>> Probably add gnome-shell user-theme extension package by default also.
>
> This tool should only be useful for a small subset of the people
> expected to use GNOME 3 and Fedora 15.

What measurements do you have to support this assertion?


To make this clear,
i am not a developer or packager, and I have no rights to decide if
package is ready or not to be shipped by default. This was my
suggestion, if you have any ideas, please, welcome.

My point here is:
stop hiding the customization problem and stop hiding from
customization problem, start to work on it. Look at the patches
provided and give comments on them.

Users are not all stupid and useless and don't getting the Very
Important Gnome Idea just because they want to change the color of the
top bar.

I do know that being "non-customizable" has always been the feature of
the Gnome desktop. I've used Gnome for 6 years because of this
feature. But during all these years I could change the theme of window
titlebar to Mist and the color of the panel to transparent. This was
the desktop I loved.

Being loyal to Gnome 3 I didn't list here all these "move the clocks
to the right", "add dock", "put smth into tray", "where is my taskbar"
and other user comments I noticed. Because Gnome 3 has its logic and
reasons and I understand it. I'm not against the Gnome ideas, I am
trying to make them better.

--
Best regards,
Aleksandra Bookwar
--
desktop mailing list
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Old 04-15-2011, 05:53 PM
"Paul W. Frields"
 
Default customization of themes and colors in gnome 3 desktop in Fedora 15

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 06:42:42PM +0200, Aleksandra Bookwar wrote:
> >> *The bug is here https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=636655.
> >> And discussion is still open.
> >
> > Probably needs a different bug open upstream explaining the problem,
> > then, since the massive ellipsization problem the bug references seems
> > to be fixed, AFAICT.
>
> The ellipsization problem is fixed but this "fix" as a design solution
> is still disussed there. I can file a new bug on this, but I am afraid
> it will be closed as a duplicate or notabug feature.
>
> Bug or not, this problem exists in current Gnome desktop. And changing
> gnome-shell theme is the only workaround we have.

Everyone working on the new GNOME 3 knows there are still some bugs,
and is working to fix them. And I would expect 3.2 to be better in
this regard. I'm not convinced a new theme is the answer to the
problem as opposed to working upstream to fix bugs.

> >> - fonts
> >> *Default fonts are bad for non-english speaking users, who work with
> >> non-Latin characters.
> >> *Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=695405 still open.
> >
> > Fair enough, the Cantarell font is missing some glyph coverage. *Why
> > not organize a team to help extend that, since it would be more useful
> > globally? *Perhaps there's already a move afoot for this, because
> > certainly the same can be said of Asian languages.
>
> Again, even this is a bug, it exists in current Gnome desktop, and
> there is no hope that it will be fixed before F15 release. And
> gnome-tweak-tool provides the only workaround for Asian, Russian and
> other not so small communities.

Or the gsettings tool, which is included by default. That doesn't
address the root cause which is glyph coverage, because the goal is
for the environment to have a fresh, consistent look using Cantarell.

> >> I want to emphasize that changing default settings is not an
> >> exceptional use-case for F15 Gnome users. It is a normal thing which
> >> will be used very often.
> >
> > What measurements do you have to support this assertion?
>
> If the four issues listed don't make it evident for you, I want to
> reformulate this question as follows: What measurements will you be
> satisfied with?
>
> I have a number of people I talked with directly, IRC logs from both
> #fedora-qa and #gnome-shell channels, maillist discussions, forum
> threads, blog posts, deviant-art group and Google Search results. I
> can calculate the number of non-english speaking users also.
>
> How many links should I provide? Or should we organize some public voting?

Reductio ad absurdum isn't helpful. We all talk within fairly
isolated communities so personal experience isn't the most helpful
measurement. Since GNOME 3 is designed to meet a much larger
audience, I suppose measurement would have to take a representative
sample that eliminates the biases of (1) people who use IRC, mailing
lists, etc., (2) people you (or I) know, and so on.

Of course, I'm not the person you have to convince, I'm trying to
point out the flaws in the logic of "People I know agree with me,
therefore I'm right."

> >> b) add gnome-tweaks-tool to the default @gnome-desktop group of
> >> packages, put it on Live images and so on
> >> Probably add gnome-shell user-theme extension package by default also.
> >
> > This tool should only be useful for a small subset of the people
> > expected to use GNOME 3 and Fedora 15.
>
> What measurements do you have to support this assertion?

Please re-read the sentence. It says "should" for a reason. ;-) What
that means is, if GNOME 3 meets its design goals, a tweaking tool
shouldn't be necessary. Now, it's certainly arguable that 3.0 doesn't
quite get there, but for me at least it's gone a heck of a long way,
and I personally haven't found a reason to run gnome-tweak-tool yet.

I installed it earlier to see what its interface was like and how it
presented choices. It uses a lot of terms and presentaion that makes
sense to people fairly deeply interested in OS details, or predisposed
to tweaking. But that represents a small subset of the people for
whom GNOME 3 is designed. Other people will be confused by it
(e.g. "anti-aliasing," "Let file manager handle desktop").

> To make this clear,
> i am not a developer or packager, and I have no rights to decide if
> package is ready or not to be shipped by default. This was my
> suggestion, if you have any ideas, please, welcome.
>
> My point here is:
> stop hiding the customization problem and stop hiding from
> customization problem, start to work on it. Look at the patches
> provided and give comments on them.
>
> Users are not all stupid and useless and don't getting the Very
> Important Gnome Idea just because they want to change the color of the
> top bar.
>
> I do know that being "non-customizable" has always been the feature of
> the Gnome desktop. I've used Gnome for 6 years because of this
> feature. But during all these years I could change the theme of window
> titlebar to Mist and the color of the panel to transparent. This was
> the desktop I loved.
>
> Being loyal to Gnome 3 I didn't list here all these "move the clocks
> to the right", "add dock", "put smth into tray", "where is my taskbar"
> and other user comments I noticed. Because Gnome 3 has its logic and
> reasons and I understand it. I'm not against the Gnome ideas, I am
> trying to make them better.

I understand, and I don't believe you have any bad intentions. I'm
simply saying this particular change doesn't seem overly useful to me.
If I were someone working on the code upstream to implement the new
GNOME 3 designs, I'd be very circumspect about encouraging any change
that defeats the design. We can agree to disagree of course. :-)

As someone who's been keenly interested in building the Fedora brand
for a number of years, I think there are greener pastures we should be
looking toward, one of which I mentioned earlier.

--
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Old 04-15-2011, 06:23 PM
Aleksandra Bookwar
 
Default customization of themes and colors in gnome 3 desktop in Fedora 15

> Everyone working on the new GNOME 3 knows there are still some bugs,
> and is working to fix them. *And I would expect 3.2 to be better in
> this regard. *I'm not convinced a new theme is the answer to the
> problem as opposed to working upstream to fix bugs.

Please note, that I am talking about Fedora 15 release here, not the
future plans. Yes, I am sure till the time Gnome 3.2 be ready, we will
have many improvements, and themes structure will probably be
rewritten completely.

> Or the gsettings tool, which is included by default. *That doesn't
> address the root cause which is glyph coverage, because the goal is
> for the environment to have a fresh, consistent look using Cantarell.

Can you provide me the links to any docs which describe
_officially_suppported_way_ to change fonts, that I can give to our
users when they ask me how to do this? Don't you see that all the info
about changing fonts now refer to gnome-tweak-tool?

> Reductio ad absurdum isn't helpful. *We all talk within fairly
> isolated communities so personal experience isn't the most helpful
> measurement. *Since GNOME 3 is designed to meet a much larger
> audience, I suppose measurement would have to take a representative
> sample that eliminates the biases of (1) people who use IRC, mailing
> lists, etc., (2) people you (or I) know, and so on.

This wasn't the reductio ad absurdum. People at fedoraforum.org,
linux.org.ru, #fedora IRC-chat are not some persons who live next
door, and Google Search doesn't do the searching inside my neighbours
only. This is a world-wide community which I am talking about. I guess
you don't have much time to spend on lurking the web-resources, as I
did last week (I'd say I spent the whole week in the internet so far).
As almost a head of local fedora support (unofficial title yes, and
local doesn't mean small here ) who tries to be in contact with all
others, I have rather wide variety of opinions and I can provide you
needed number of links, just ask.

>> >> b) add gnome-tweaks-tool to the default @gnome-desktop group of
>> >> packages, put it on Live images and so on
>> >> Probably add gnome-shell user-theme extension package by default also.
>> >
>> > This tool should only be useful for a small subset of the people
>> > expected to use GNOME 3 and Fedora 15.
>>
>> What measurements do you have to support this assertion?
>
> Please re-read the sentence. *It says "should" for a reason. ;-) What
> that means is, if GNOME 3 meets its design goals, a tweaking tool
> shouldn't be necessary. *Now, it's certainly arguable that 3.0 doesn't
> quite get there, but for me at least it's gone a heck of a long way,
> and I personally haven't found a reason to run gnome-tweak-tool yet.

Once again, we are going to ship Fedora 15 with Gnome 3.0, not Gnome
3.2. That is the problem. And of course gnome-tweak-tool is not the
best solution, but temporary working one. To spend a little bit of
your time to improve it, that's all I am asking.

--
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Old 04-15-2011, 06:32 PM
Colin Walters
 
Default customization of themes and colors in gnome 3 desktop in Fedora 15

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 12:42 PM, Aleksandra Bookwar <admin@bookwar.info> wrote:

>>> - fonts
>>> *Default fonts are bad for non-english speaking users, who work with
>>> non-Latin characters.
>>> *Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=695405 still open.

This is actually a pretty classic case of a real problem that's lost
between the upstream-"distribution" divide =/ However, I don't think
it's helpful to have multi-modal discussions; let's keep this in the
bug.

I'll follow up there.
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Old 04-15-2011, 07:03 PM
"Paul W. Frields"
 
Default customization of themes and colors in gnome 3 desktop in Fedora 15

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 08:23:20PM +0200, Aleksandra Bookwar wrote:
[...snip...]
> > Or the gsettings tool, which is included by default. *That doesn't
> > address the root cause which is glyph coverage, because the goal is
> > for the environment to have a fresh, consistent look using Cantarell.
>
> Can you provide me the links to any docs which describe
> _officially_suppported_way_ to change fonts, that I can give to our
> users when they ask me how to do this? Don't you see that all the info
> about changing fonts now refer to gnome-tweak-tool?

I think you're arguing about something I'm not here. You indicated we
need to provide gnome-tweak-tool by default. I agree that
gnome-tweak-tool is useful for a subset of users. You said that was
the only way to change fonts, and I indicated it could be done with
gsettings as well, and that's included already.

Examples of commands are already going to be included in the release
notes, e.g.:
http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=docs/release-notes.git;a=blob;f=en-US/Desktop.xml;h=e3159d0857b2ce1dbfea75b6842ed049bc7a 4971;hb=refs/heads/f15

The Releas Notes clearly indicate that gnome-tweak-tool is available,
and how to install it in cases where specific changes are desired.
There are other tweaks that tool doesn't address, and gsettings is
useful for that larger superset.

> > Reductio ad absurdum isn't helpful. *We all talk within fairly
> > isolated communities so personal experience isn't the most helpful
> > measurement. *Since GNOME 3 is designed to meet a much larger
> > audience, I suppose measurement would have to take a representative
> > sample that eliminates the biases of (1) people who use IRC, mailing
> > lists, etc., (2) people you (or I) know, and so on.
>
> This wasn't the reductio ad absurdum.

Sorry, I thought that's what you meant by submitting this to popular
vote, but I apologize for the lame joke on my part. :-)

> People at fedoraforum.org, linux.org.ru, #fedora IRC-chat are not
> some persons who live next door, and Google Search doesn't do the
> searching inside my neighbours only. This is a world-wide community
> which I am talking about.

I think I have a pretty good appreciation for that, but thanks for the
reminder! :-) Also, remember when you search you are automatically
focusing with biases based on your terms, as well as Google's
algorithm results, which depend to some extent on what people like you
care about. So again, I'm just saying it's not a representative way
to make a universal statement about what people do or don't need.

> I guess you don't have much time to spend on lurking the
> web-resources, as I did last week (I'd say I spent the whole week in
> the internet so far).

Generally it's not good idea to guess or assume things in this way
about others. I promise not to make assumptions about your intentions
or personal schedule and hope you'll do me the same courtesy. :-)

> As almost a head of local fedora support (unofficial title yes, and
> local doesn't mean small here ) who tries to be in contact with all
> others, I have rather wide variety of opinions and I can provide you
> needed number of links, just ask.

Again, I don't think that gives a representative sample of where GNOME
3's aiming. By nature we're already restricting the population to
"current Fedora users," which is a subset.

> >> >> b) add gnome-tweaks-tool to the default @gnome-desktop group of
> >> >> packages, put it on Live images and so on
> >> >> Probably add gnome-shell user-theme extension package by default also.
> >> >
> >> > This tool should only be useful for a small subset of the people
> >> > expected to use GNOME 3 and Fedora 15.
> >>
> >> What measurements do you have to support this assertion?
> >
> > Please re-read the sentence. *It says "should" for a reason. ;-) What
> > that means is, if GNOME 3 meets its design goals, a tweaking tool
> > shouldn't be necessary. *Now, it's certainly arguable that 3.0 doesn't
> > quite get there, but for me at least it's gone a heck of a long way,
> > and I personally haven't found a reason to run gnome-tweak-tool yet.
>
> Once again, we are going to ship Fedora 15 with Gnome 3.0, not Gnome
> 3.2. That is the problem. And of course gnome-tweak-tool is not the
> best solution, but temporary working one. To spend a little bit of
> your time to improve it, that's all I am asking.

I don't think shipping F15 with GNOME 3.0 is a problem -- it's a
feature and a point of pride. Sure, it's not perfect, but you could
say the same thing about GNOME 2.12 or 2.24 (random picks, I don't
have any specific beef with those releases either). For every release
there's a point where content or code has to freeze, and further
changes need to target the next release so the product can ship.

I recommend working with the upstream in a constructive way to help
move 3.2 forward. Some suggestions I've already made are gathering
teams to improve glyph coverage in the Cantarell font, and filing bugs
for problems you've observed in 3.0 that need to be fixed for 3.2.
I'm sure there are more and that we'll find lots of ways to keep both
GNOME 3.2 and Fedora 16 on a road of continual improvement.

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Old 04-15-2011, 09:50 PM
Aleksandra Bookwar
 
Default customization of themes and colors in gnome 3 desktop in Fedora 15

> The Releas Notes clearly indicate that gnome-tweak-tool is available,
> and how to install it in cases where specific changes are desired.
> There are other tweaks that tool doesn't address, and gsettings is
> useful for that larger superset.

My point with all four items in the list was to show you that this is
not a specific case when user will install and use gnome-tweak-tool.
And mentioning gsettings doesn't help here. Because even if gsettings
approach is supposed to be "officially supported", there is no way it
will be actually used instead of gnome-tweak-tool. And even official
docs do not suggest it as a solution for the problems I listed.

> Generally it's not good idea to guess or assume things in this way
> about others. *I promise not to make assumptions about your intentions
> or personal schedule and hope you'll do me the same courtesy. :-)

I supposed that there are not so many crazy persons in the world who
could spend all their time with web-surfing on some particular topic
instead of doing their real job, as I did. But ok, I won't do this
again.

> Again, I don't think that gives a representative sample of where GNOME
> 3's aiming. *By nature we're already restricting the population to
> "current Fedora users," which is a subset.

It seems to me that you are pretty sure already that there is no
possible ways to get the representative sample at all. Then, though I
do not understand why fedoraforum.org and #fedora channel doesn't
represent rather big group of Fedora users, I'd better stop discussing
this matter.

> I don't think shipping F15 with GNOME 3.0 is a problem -- it's a
> feature and a point of pride. *Sure, it's not perfect, but you could
> say the same thing about GNOME 2.12 or 2.24 (random picks, I don't
> have any specific beef with those releases either). *For every release
> there's a point where content or code has to freeze, and further
> changes need to target the next release so the product can ship.

I didn't mean that shipping is the problem. I wanted to say that Gnome
3 we are going to ship in F15 does have this particular problem.

> I recommend working with the upstream in a constructive way to help
> move 3.2 forward.

I don't think you need to specifically recommend this to me, since I
am already participating. I am rather happy with reaction on my
bug-reporting I get in GBZ, even when bugreports I've posted appear to
be false alarm or very stupid ones. But this mail I wrote here is also
a part of this constructive work as I see it.

There is no fighting here, I gave you the report about feedback Gnome
3 gets and I asked you to consider how this feedback could effect the
Gnome 3 development and packaging.

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Aleksandra Bookwar
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