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Old 03-04-2011, 10:25 PM
Matthias Clasen
 
Default gdm changes and the live cd

There are some changes in GDM and GNOME3 that affect our live cd setup,
and will require some changes:

GDM no longer has a keyboard or language chooser. They were mainly added
to cater to livecd must-choose-before login scenarios, but they proved
to be really problematic ever since we added them, since they cause a
conflict between multiple configuration sources (system keyboard layout
vs stored user configuration vs login screen choice, etc). Without these
choosers, it doesn't really make sense anymore to stop at the login
screen with a time login, and we should consider to just autologin
directly to the user session. The session will start in English, and
users who need a different language will have to select the language in
System Settings > Region and re-login. Keyboard configuration is less
problematic, since it can be changed without requiring a re-login.

We no longer show icons on the desktop, so there is no immediately
obvious place to show the 'install to hard disk' launcher. The
alternatives are to make it a favourite in the shell overview, or to add
it as a menuitem in the user menu. Both of these have some drawbacks
(the favourite does not display any text, leaving the user to guess from
the icon, the user menu requires a gnome-shell patch). An alternative
I'd like to propose is to simply autostart the installer. That will make
it hard to overlook, and seems to nicely emphasize the main role of the
live cd as a convenient way to install Fedora.

Thoughts ?


Matthias

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Old 03-04-2011, 11:48 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default gdm changes and the live cd

On Fri, 2011-03-04 at 23:25 +0000, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> We no longer show icons on the desktop, so there is no immediately
> obvious place to show the 'install to hard disk' launcher. The
> alternatives are to make it a favourite in the shell overview, or to add
> it as a menuitem in the user menu. Both of these have some drawbacks
> (the favourite does not display any text, leaving the user to guess from
> the icon, the user menu requires a gnome-shell patch). An alternative
> I'd like to propose is to simply autostart the installer. That will make
> it hard to overlook, and seems to nicely emphasize the main role of the
> live cd as a convenient way to install Fedora.

Autostarting the installer would have been disastrous during the classes
I've taught kids using live media USB sticks. At the beginning of the
class I would have had to remind the kids to not click on it and destroy
the lab machines we were so kindly allowed to use.

As long as it doesn't effect live usb....

~m

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Old 03-04-2011, 11:48 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default gdm changes and the live cd

On Fri, 2011-03-04 at 23:25 +0000, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> We no longer show icons on the desktop, so there is no immediately
> obvious place to show the 'install to hard disk' launcher. The
> alternatives are to make it a favourite in the shell overview, or to add
> it as a menuitem in the user menu. Both of these have some drawbacks
> (the favourite does not display any text, leaving the user to guess from
> the icon, the user menu requires a gnome-shell patch). An alternative
> I'd like to propose is to simply autostart the installer. That will make
> it hard to overlook, and seems to nicely emphasize the main role of the
> live cd as a convenient way to install Fedora.

Autostarting the installer would have been disastrous during the classes
I've taught kids using live media USB sticks. At the beginning of the
class I would have had to remind the kids to not click on it and destroy
the lab machines we were so kindly allowed to use.

As long as it doesn't effect live usb....

~m

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Old 03-05-2011, 12:32 AM
Adam Williamson
 
Default gdm changes and the live cd

On Fri, 2011-03-04 at 18:25 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> There are some changes in GDM and GNOME3 that affect our live cd setup,
> and will require some changes:
>
> GDM no longer has a keyboard or language chooser. They were mainly added
> to cater to livecd must-choose-before login scenarios, but they proved
> to be really problematic ever since we added them, since they cause a
> conflict between multiple configuration sources (system keyboard layout
> vs stored user configuration vs login screen choice, etc). Without these
> choosers, it doesn't really make sense anymore to stop at the login
> screen with a time login, and we should consider to just autologin
> directly to the user session. The session will start in English, and
> users who need a different language will have to select the language in
> System Settings > Region and re-login. Keyboard configuration is less
> problematic, since it can be changed without requiring a re-login.

This seems pretty reasonable and is actually what all the other desktops
do already. As a wishlist item, it may be nice to have an applet for
language / keyboard layout switching in the default configuration (as,
ew, international editions of Windows do).

> We no longer show icons on the desktop, so there is no immediately
> obvious place to show the 'install to hard disk' launcher. The
> alternatives are to make it a favourite in the shell overview, or to add
> it as a menuitem in the user menu. Both of these have some drawbacks
> (the favourite does not display any text, leaving the user to guess from
> the icon, the user menu requires a gnome-shell patch). An alternative
> I'd like to propose is to simply autostart the installer. That will make
> it hard to overlook, and seems to nicely emphasize the main role of the
> live cd as a convenient way to install Fedora.

As you didn't like the idea of displaying a Nautilus window with the
Desktop folder contents by default, that may be the best other choice
for me, though I do worry about people feeling 'compelled' to install
with that setup. It does seem like a decent option, though.
--
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net

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Old 03-05-2011, 12:35 AM
"Clyde E. Kunkel"
 
Default gdm changes and the live cd

On 03/04/2011 06:25 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> There are some changes in GDM and GNOME3 that affect our live cd setup,
> and will require some changes:
> ...
> We no longer show icons on the desktop, so there is no immediately
> obvious place to show the 'install to hard disk' launcher. The
> alternatives are to make it a favourite in the shell overview, or to add
> it as a menuitem in the user menu. Both of these have some drawbacks
> (the favourite does not display any text, leaving the user to guess from
> the icon, the user menu requires a gnome-shell patch). An alternative
> I'd like to propose is to simply autostart the installer. That will make
> it hard to overlook, and seems to nicely emphasize the main role of the
> live cd as a convenient way to install Fedora.
>
> Thoughts ?
>
>
> Matthias
>

What do you think about the desktop background containing a msg
something like:

This is a live installation of the Gnome desktop. It is a temporary
installation that has not touched your hard drives. To install to your
hard drive, open a terminal and type "install-desktop" (no quotes). Enjoy!!

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Old 03-05-2011, 12:46 AM
Matthias Clasen
 
Default gdm changes and the live cd

On Fri, 2011-03-04 at 19:48 -0500, Máirín Duffy wrote:

> Autostarting the installer would have been disastrous during the classes
> I've taught kids using live media USB sticks. At the beginning of the
> class I would have had to remind the kids to not click on it and destroy
> the lab machines we were so kindly allowed to use.

Interesting. I guess that means for your use case it would actually be
advantageous to 'bury' the install option somewhere in the overview or
user menu. Since if it sits prominently on the desktop, you still have
to tell the kids not to click it, right ?



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Old 03-05-2011, 12:57 AM
Christoph Wickert
 
Default gdm changes and the live cd

Am Freitag, den 04.03.2011, 18:25 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen:
> There are some changes in GDM and GNOME3 that affect our live cd setup,
> and will require some changes:
>
> GDM no longer has a keyboard or language chooser. They were mainly added
> to cater to livecd must-choose-before login scenarios, but they proved
> to be really problematic ever since we added them, since they cause a
> conflict between multiple configuration sources (system keyboard layout
> vs stored user configuration vs login screen choice, etc).

What exactly were the problems here? User configuration overwrites
system configuration and the choice from the login overwrites the user's
setting since it is more recent. There may have been technical problems
under the hood, but I think GDM solved them very well and the users were
happy. They will be way unhappier with what you are proposing.

> Without these
> choosers, it doesn't really make sense anymore to stop at the login
> screen with a time login, and we should consider to just autologin
> directly to the user session. The session will start in English, and
> users who need a different language will have to select the language in
> System Settings > Region and re-login. Keyboard configuration is less
> problematic, since it can be changed without requiring a re-login.

Only ~ 40% of our users are using en_US. Forcing the majority to log in
to a language they don't use and perhaps not even understand seems very
drastic to me.

I have to admit that this is what LXDM on my LXDE spin does, too, but I
know people see it as the biggest problem of the spin and really hate
it. QA told me that it's a major problem and that's why I'm working on
changing this for F15.

> We no longer show icons on the desktop, so there is no immediately
> obvious place to show the 'install to hard disk' launcher. The
> alternatives are to make it a favourite in the shell overview, or to add
> it as a menuitem in the user menu. Both of these have some drawbacks
> (the favourite does not display any text, leaving the user to guess from
> the icon, the user menu requires a gnome-shell patch). An alternative
> I'd like to propose is to simply autostart the installer. That will make
> it hard to overlook, and seems to nicely emphasize the main role of the
> live cd as a convenient way to install Fedora.

I don't think this is the main role of the live CD and if the desktop
team had come to FUDCon Tempe they knew that many of our contributors
and developers agree with me.

As an ambassador I want to showcase Fedora and the people who come to
our booth want to try it. This is the main role of the live CD. If
people wanted to install it straight away they could also use the
installation DVD with all it's advantages

The anaconda folks are already unhappy with the installation from live
CD and I guess advertising the installer so prominent will not make
things better.

> Thoughts ?

Yes, a lot, besides the ones I already wrote down.

First of all I'd like to see an open discussion but you are stating
facts: "GDM no longer has...", "We no longer show...". It seems the
desktop team already agreed on this and I wonder where the discussion
took place.

Having this discussion here is a good start, but as GDM is not only used
by the desktop live CD I'd like to see all affected parties involved.

Regards,
Christoph


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Old 03-05-2011, 01:46 AM
Matthias Clasen
 
Default gdm changes and the live cd

On Sat, 2011-03-05 at 02:57 +0100, Christoph Wickert wrote:
> Am Freitag, den 04.03.2011, 18:25 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen:
> > There are some changes in GDM and GNOME3 that affect our live cd setup,
> > and will require some changes:
> >
> > GDM no longer has a keyboard or language chooser. They were mainly added
> > to cater to livecd must-choose-before login scenarios, but they proved
> > to be really problematic ever since we added them, since they cause a
> > conflict between multiple configuration sources (system keyboard layout
> > vs stored user configuration vs login screen choice, etc).
>
> What exactly were the problems here? User configuration overwrites
> system configuration and the choice from the login overwrites the user's
> setting since it is more recent. There may have been technical problems
> under the hood, but I think GDM solved them very well and the users were
> happy. They will be way unhappier with what you are proposing.

There's really quite a few problems.

gdm offered only a limited choice of a single layout with no variants,
which was sufficient for entering your password, but then some people
were upset that they had to select their keyboard layout again in the
session, so we made the gdm choice transfer in the session. That in turn
made people upset who have a complicated, multi-layout or variant-using
setup in the session and did not want that overwritten. Then we made it
so that the gdm layout is only added to the existing session
configuration, then we made further tweaks ... and still, it was never
right.

Ultimatively, 99% of all passwords out there consist of ascii only, so
why not keep it simple and forego all this crazyness ?

> > Without these
> > choosers, it doesn't really make sense anymore to stop at the login
> > screen with a time login, and we should consider to just autologin
> > directly to the user session. The session will start in English, and
> > users who need a different language will have to select the language in
> > System Settings > Region and re-login. Keyboard configuration is less
> > problematic, since it can be changed without requiring a re-login.
>
> Only ~ 40% of our users are using en_US. Forcing the majority to log in
> to a language they don't use and perhaps not even understand seems very
> drastic to me.

This is really only an issue for the live cd, though. In a regular
installation, it is just a one-time annoyance. You log in once, select
your language, and you are all set. Next time you log in, you get your
language right away.


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Old 03-05-2011, 04:36 AM
Michael Cronenworth
 
Default gdm changes and the live cd

On 03/04/2011 05:25 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> An alternative
> I'd like to propose is to simply autostart the installer. That will make
> it hard to overlook, and seems to nicely emphasize the main role of the
> live cd as a convenient way to install Fedora.

I'm not sure about this solution.

Sometimes my use case for a Live Image is for troubleshooting a broken
system. I don't wish to install Fedora in this case. I realize I could
just 1) cancel out of the installer 2) ignore it or 3) roll my own Live
image, but I'm not so sure I am alone.

I'm not sure about Gnome 3's design of a icon-less desktop either. I run
Gnome 2 with no icons, but this is my personal choice. Once Gnome 3
widgets (or whatever they'll be called) start spawning I won't be
surprised if someone makes a desktop icon widget. I realize this topic
is for another thread so I'll stop here.
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Old 03-05-2011, 07:29 AM
Ville-Pekka Vainio
 
Default gdm changes and the live cd

pe, 2011-03-04 kello 18:25 -0500, Matthias Clasen kirjoitti:
> The session will start in English, and
> users who need a different language will have to select the language in
> System Settings > Region and re-login.

This will make things very difficult for users who don't know English
well. With the previous version of GDM, we could at least explain the
language selection with one screenshot, because the login screen was so
simple.

If GDM won't support language selection any more, then we should come up
with another simple way for choosing the language before login. Maybe in
the GRUB screen, like Ubuntu apparently does it?

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