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Old 03-05-2011, 11:56 AM
Naheem Zaffar
 
Default gdm changes and the live cd

How about having desktop Icons *JUST* for the Live CD? That way, the installer link can still be prominently shown. Let the installer turn them off if that is what we want for the installed versions?

(I also like the convenience of desktop icons and I suspect they will become default again a few releases down the road.)

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Old 03-05-2011, 01:24 PM
Lennart Poettering
 
Default gdm changes and the live cd

On Fri, 04.03.11 18:25, Matthias Clasen (mclasen@redhat.com) wrote:

> it as a menuitem in the user menu. Both of these have some drawbacks
> (the favourite does not display any text, leaving the user to guess from
> the icon, the user menu requires a gnome-shell patch). An alternative

Hmm, is there a reason why the favourite icons don't have anything
resembling tooltips? It's kinda annoying that there's no way to figure
out what an icon starts unless you click on it. I for example was
wondering about the shotwell icon (which is apparently enabled by
default) what it was for until i clicked on it.

Lennart

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Old 03-05-2011, 01:24 PM
Lennart Poettering
 
Default gdm changes and the live cd

On Fri, 04.03.11 18:25, Matthias Clasen (mclasen@redhat.com) wrote:

> it as a menuitem in the user menu. Both of these have some drawbacks
> (the favourite does not display any text, leaving the user to guess from
> the icon, the user menu requires a gnome-shell patch). An alternative

Hmm, is there a reason why the favourite icons don't have anything
resembling tooltips? It's kinda annoying that there's no way to figure
out what an icon starts unless you click on it. I for example was
wondering about the shotwell icon (which is apparently enabled by
default) what it was for until i clicked on it.

Lennart

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Old 03-05-2011, 01:40 PM
drago01
 
Default gdm changes and the live cd

On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 3:24 PM, Lennart Poettering <mzerqung@0pointer.de> wrote:
> On Fri, 04.03.11 18:25, Matthias Clasen (mclasen@redhat.com) wrote:
>
>> it as a menuitem in the user menu. Both of these have some drawbacks
>> (the favourite does not display any text, leaving the user to guess from
>> the icon, the user menu requires a gnome-shell patch). An alternative
>
> Hmm, is there a reason why the favourite icons don't have anything
> resembling tooltips? It's kinda annoying that there's no way to figure
> out what an icon starts unless you click on it. I for example was
> wondering about the shotwell icon (which is apparently enabled by
> default) what it was for until i clicked on it.

https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=642871
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Old 03-05-2011, 01:40 PM
drago01
 
Default gdm changes and the live cd

On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 3:24 PM, Lennart Poettering <mzerqung@0pointer.de> wrote:
> On Fri, 04.03.11 18:25, Matthias Clasen (mclasen@redhat.com) wrote:
>
>> it as a menuitem in the user menu. Both of these have some drawbacks
>> (the favourite does not display any text, leaving the user to guess from
>> the icon, the user menu requires a gnome-shell patch). An alternative
>
> Hmm, is there a reason why the favourite icons don't have anything
> resembling tooltips? It's kinda annoying that there's no way to figure
> out what an icon starts unless you click on it. I for example was
> wondering about the shotwell icon (which is apparently enabled by
> default) what it was for until i clicked on it.

https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=642871
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Old 03-05-2011, 02:46 PM
Lars Herrmann
 
Default gdm changes and the live cd

On 03/04/2011 09:46 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> On Sat, 2011-03-05 at 02:57 +0100, Christoph Wickert wrote:
>> Am Freitag, den 04.03.2011, 18:25 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen:
>>> There are some changes in GDM and GNOME3 that affect our live cd setup,
>>> and will require some changes:
>>>
>>> GDM no longer has a keyboard or language chooser. They were mainly added
>>> to cater to livecd must-choose-before login scenarios, but they proved
>>> to be really problematic ever since we added them, since they cause a
>>> conflict between multiple configuration sources (system keyboard layout
>>> vs stored user configuration vs login screen choice, etc).
>>
>> What exactly were the problems here? User configuration overwrites
>> system configuration and the choice from the login overwrites the user's
>> setting since it is more recent. There may have been technical problems
>> under the hood, but I think GDM solved them very well and the users were
>> happy. They will be way unhappier with what you are proposing.
>
> There's really quite a few problems.
>
> gdm offered only a limited choice of a single layout with no variants,
> which was sufficient for entering your password, but then some people
> were upset that they had to select their keyboard layout again in the
> session, so we made the gdm choice transfer in the session. That in turn
> made people upset who have a complicated, multi-layout or variant-using
> setup in the session and did not want that overwritten. Then we made it
> so that the gdm layout is only added to the existing session
> configuration, then we made further tweaks ... and still, it was never
> right.
>
> Ultimatively, 99% of all passwords out there consist of ascii only, so
> why not keep it simple and forego all this crazyness ?
>
>>> Without these
>>> choosers, it doesn't really make sense anymore to stop at the login
>>> screen with a time login, and we should consider to just autologin
>>> directly to the user session. The session will start in English, and
>>> users who need a different language will have to select the language in
>>> System Settings > Region and re-login. Keyboard configuration is less
>>> problematic, since it can be changed without requiring a re-login.
>>
>> Only ~ 40% of our users are using en_US. Forcing the majority to log in
>> to a language they don't use and perhaps not even understand seems very
>> drastic to me.
>
> This is really only an issue for the live cd, though. In a regular
> installation, it is just a one-time annoyance. You log in once, select
> your language, and you are all set. Next time you log in, you get your
> language right away.
>
which get's you back to what's the purpose of the LiveCD. Isn't the
primary use case to give users an impression of what they would get with
an install - without taking risk and time to actually install ?

I wonder what kind of impression you provide by completely ignoring the
fact that they might not use en_US or understand English well enough to
*find* and *use* the language settings. Not to mention the relogin -
this is juts so 1995

If you want to ignore a minority of users requirements, then do exactly
this and don't change anything. I didn't consider the outlined use cases
overly relevant for the LiveCD, but I might be missing something.

Just my 5 cents

Lars

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Old 03-05-2011, 03:11 PM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default gdm changes and the live cd

On Sat, Mar 05, 2011 at 10:46:17 -0500,
Lars Herrmann <herrmann@redhat.com> wrote:
> which get's you back to what's the purpose of the LiveCD. Isn't the
> primary use case to give users an impression of what they would get with
> an install - without taking risk and time to actually install ?

Note that there isn't just one livecd. Even if you are mainly referring to
the Desktop spin, there are a few other spins that use it as a base. The
use cases for these different spins could be quite different.

As the maintainer of the games spin, which is based off the Desktop spin,
my view of the purpose is that is is for demoing Fedora. I don't think
running off optical media is a good way to use it. It may also be used for
installs. However, I also use custom spins of USB devices, so I don't
need to have as much trust in strange PCs when I want to use them and so
that I can use Fedora instead of Windows. In this latter case I don't want
to be asked about installs every boot.
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Old 03-06-2011, 12:29 AM
Christopher Aillon
 
Default gdm changes and the live cd

On 03/04/2011 03:25 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> We no longer show icons on the desktop, so there is no immediately
> obvious place to show the 'install to hard disk' launcher. The
> alternatives are to make it a favourite in the shell overview, or to add
> it as a menuitem in the user menu. Both of these have some drawbacks
> (the favourite does not display any text, leaving the user to guess from
> the icon, the user menu requires a gnome-shell patch). An alternative
> I'd like to propose is to simply autostart the installer. That will make
> it hard to overlook, and seems to nicely emphasize the main role of the
> live cd as a convenient way to install Fedora.

Another thing we could perhaps do is have a persistent notification up.
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Old 03-06-2011, 01:07 AM
Christoph Wickert
 
Default gdm changes and the live cd

Am Samstag, den 05.03.2011, 17:29 -0800 schrieb Christopher Aillon:
> On 03/04/2011 03:25 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> > We no longer show icons on the desktop, so there is no immediately
> > obvious place to show the 'install to hard disk' launcher. The
> > alternatives are to make it a favourite in the shell overview, or to add
> > it as a menuitem in the user menu. Both of these have some drawbacks
> > (the favourite does not display any text, leaving the user to guess from
> > the icon, the user menu requires a gnome-shell patch). An alternative
> > I'd like to propose is to simply autostart the installer. That will make
> > it hard to overlook, and seems to nicely emphasize the main role of the
> > live cd as a convenient way to install Fedora.
>
> Another thing we could perhaps do is have a persistent notification up.

"Click here to install Fedora on your hard drive"

/me likes this, great idea!

Regards,
Christoph


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Old 03-06-2011, 05:46 PM
Julian Aloofi
 
Default gdm changes and the live cd

Am Samstag, den 05.03.2011, 10:29 +0200 schrieb Ville-Pekka Vainio:
> pe, 2011-03-04 kello 18:25 -0500, Matthias Clasen kirjoitti:
> > The session will start in English, and
> > users who need a different language will have to select the language in
> > System Settings > Region and re-login.
>
> This will make things very difficult for users who don't know English
> well. With the previous version of GDM, we could at least explain the
> language selection with one screenshot, because the login screen was so
> simple.
>
> If GDM won't support language selection any more, then we should come up
> with another simple way for choosing the language before login. Maybe in
> the GRUB screen, like Ubuntu apparently does it?
>
> --
> Ville-Pekka Vainio
>

The language selection in the ISOLINUX screen sounds like a good
solution. It's what openSUSE and Ubuntu are doing as well and therefore
shouldn't be too hard to implement.
It would also have the huge advantage to solve this problem for the
other desktops as well, who have not yet found a way of dealing with
this it seems (KDE, XFCE and LXDE all autologin you to an english
desktop).

CCing the spins list as this might be an interesting thread for them.


Regards,
Julian
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