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Old 02-28-2011, 03:43 AM
Adam Williamson
 
Default design and communication issues

On Sun, 2011-02-27 at 20:32 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:

> I did ask you to correct me if I was wrong...but I'm not sure I was.
> That's the way I remember it being presented during the Test Day...and
> there's still no reboot option in GNOME 3 as of right now.
>
> You may have banged your head on the desk, but you don't appear to have
> actually replied and provided correct information, whatever that may be;
> I don't see a single post from you in that thread. I don't actually see
> a post from anyone on the desktop or GNOME teams.

Damn, stupid mailing lists; I forgot it was a cross-posted thread and
Bastien followed up on this list.
--
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Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net

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Old 02-28-2011, 03:44 AM
"Jason D. Clinton"
 
Default design and communication issues

On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 22:32, Adam Williamson <awilliam@redhat.com> wrote:

> We're trying really hard to stay on message and keep people in the

> wider community informed and then I see threads like this

> <http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2011-February/097081.html> where a Red Hat employee *paid* to work on the desktop somehow manages to throw factually inaccurate gasoline on an already burning fire. It's really disheartening.




> I actually banged my head on my desk when you did that.



I did ask you to correct me if I was wrong...but I'm not sure I was.

That's the way I remember it being presented during the Test Day...and

there's still no reboot option in GNOME 3 as of right now.



You may have banged your head on the desk, but you don't appear to have

actually replied and provided correct information, whatever that may be;

I don't see a single post from you in that thread. I don't actually see

a post from anyone on the desktop or GNOME teams.

I saw the flurry of frantic IRC conversations among your coworkers scrambling to figure out which one of them was going to set you straight. That's the only reason I was made aware of the thread.


*
It's also not easy to find the correct information. People who have

issues with GNOME 3 design are generally referred to gnome3.org, or the

FAQ at http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/FAQ , or the design

whiteboards at http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/Whiteboards ;

I've been looking through all this stuff for ten minutes and I can't

find anything that accurately reflects the current actual status of the

shutdown/restart/suspend design. The document on this -

http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/Whiteboards/SystemStopRestart -

refers explicitly to a 'Restart' option which does not exist in my

up-to-date F15 system. So what *is* the party line here, anyway?

What I hope you would take away from my admonishment and suggestion is only the suggestion component: lurk on the IRC channel so you can pop over and ask *before* you respond. Often times, the discussion to come up with the right response is itself informative.

*



I'm not paid to work on the desktop, by the way. I'm paid to test stuff,

or rather, to facilitate community testing of stuff. As far as that

goes, I will work professionally to ensure that we do as much as we can

to test that GNOME 3 does what it's designed to do. But *personally*,

I'm just a GNOME user - a longstanding GNOME user - who is, like many

other GNOME users, rather frustrated by a lot of the design choices made

in GNOME 3, which seem to target a potential audience whose chances of

materializing are at best dubious, in preference to the audience of

real, existing GNOME users. I perfectly understand the different

possible positions on this, but I assert my right to represent mine. I'm

raising my personal issues here, I'm not representing Red Hat or Fedora

QA.

Sure. And I understand that. But I think you might feel differently if you had a chance to get a more nuanced answer from the decision makers involved in an interactive forum like IRC and then you could, perhaps, pass along that nuanced position more effectively.


You *are* doing a good job as evidenced by the vast majority of the messages that you send to test@ but I hope that you see that I'm suggesting a subtle change in your work flow that might, at least, make the F15 release go slightly better.



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Old 02-28-2011, 03:58 AM
Adam Williamson
 
Default design and communication issues

On Sun, 2011-02-27 at 22:44 -0600, Jason D. Clinton wrote:


> It's also not easy to find the correct information. People who
> have
> issues with GNOME 3 design are generally referred to
> gnome3.org, or the
> FAQ at http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/FAQ , or the
> design
> whiteboards at
> http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/Whiteboards ;
> I've been looking through all this stuff for ten minutes and I
> can't
> find anything that accurately reflects the current actual
> status of the
> shutdown/restart/suspend design. The document on this -
> http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/Whiteboards/SystemStopRestart -
> refers explicitly to a 'Restart' option which does not exist
> in my
> up-to-date F15 system. So what *is* the party line here,
> anyway?
>
> What I hope you would take away from my admonishment and suggestion is
> only the suggestion component: lurk on the IRC channel so you can pop
> over and ask *before* you respond. Often times, the discussion to come
> up with the right response is itself informative.

Um. I'm sorry, but are you really telling me the answer to my question
is 'ignore everything on our many official web sites and ask on IRC'?
And you're giving me advice on *my* workflow?

> Sure. And I understand that. But I think you might feel differently if
> you had a chance to get a more nuanced answer from the decision makers
> involved in an interactive forum like IRC and then you could, perhaps,
> pass along that nuanced position more effectively.
>
> You *are* doing a good job as evidenced by the vast majority of the
> messages that you send to test@ but I hope that you see that I'm
> suggesting a subtle change in your work flow that might, at least,
> make the F15 release go slightly better.

I do see that, yes. I hope you're also seeing the issues I'm
highlighting in your workflows.
--
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net

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Old 02-28-2011, 08:41 AM
Bastien Nocera
 
Default design and communication issues

On Sun, 2011-02-27 at 20:43 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Sun, 2011-02-27 at 20:32 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:
>
> > I did ask you to correct me if I was wrong...but I'm not sure I was.
> > That's the way I remember it being presented during the Test Day...and
> > there's still no reboot option in GNOME 3 as of right now.
> >
> > You may have banged your head on the desk, but you don't appear to have
> > actually replied and provided correct information, whatever that may be;
> > I don't see a single post from you in that thread. I don't actually see
> > a post from anyone on the desktop or GNOME teams.
>
> Damn, stupid mailing lists; I forgot it was a cross-posted thread and
> Bastien followed up on this list.

It wasn't cross-posted. You even mentioned you didn't like cross-posting
in your answer to me. And I mentioned using the upstream IRC channels,
or poking someone on #fedora-desktop on GIMPNet.

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