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Bastien Nocera 02-17-2011 10:02 PM

Per user vs. system settings in GNOME 3 (was How do we change fonts now)
 
On Thu, 2011-02-17 at 22:59 +0100, Christoph Wickert wrote:
> Am Donnerstag, den 17.02.2011, 22:40 +0100 schrieb drago01:
> > On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 10:38 PM, Christoph Wickert
> > <christoph.wickert@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > Am Donnerstag, den 17.02.2011, 21:31 +0000 schrieb Bastien Nocera:
> > >> On Thu, 2011-02-17 at 14:55 -0500, Clyde E. Kunkel wrote:
> > >> > Please, oh please, someone tell me how to change the fonts in gnome 3
> > >> > now. My old eyes, even with glasses and a magnifying glass are starting
> > >> > to hurt.
> > >>
> > >> search for "Universal Access" (under system settings), and change the
> > >> "text size".
> > >
> > > So this is a system-wide setting??
> >
> > No, "system settings" is what the panel is called, it has nothing to
> > do with "system wide"
>
> In system-settings "Universal Access" is listed under "System" together
> with other settings like "Users" or "Time and Date". This is confusing.
> People need to know what changes affect the whole system and what only
> affects their account. Currently we have this by separating
> "Preferences" from "Administration".

If you disagree with how the different panels and preferences are
sorted, then please file a bug upstream. It won't magically be changed
by making remarks here.

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Bastien Nocera 02-17-2011 10:32 PM

Per user vs. system settings in GNOME 3 (was How do we change fonts now)
 
On Thu, 2011-02-17 at 23:14 +0000, Jˇhann B. Gu­mundsson wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-02-17 at 23:02 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> > If you disagree with how the different panels and preferences are
> > sorted, then please file a bug upstream. It won't magically be changed
> > by making remarks her
>
> It should be sufficient to file a bug in bugzilla.redhat.com

Except that we won't be taking decisions from discussions within the Red
Hat bugzilla (which wouldn't be well perceived within the upstream
community), and that you'll just be making us do the work of moving the
bug, taking into consideration whether the bug is worthwhile moving,
after we had a chance to look at it.

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Bastien Nocera 02-17-2011 10:57 PM

Per user vs. system settings in GNOME 3 (was How do we change fonts now)
 
On Thu, 2011-02-17 at 23:08 +0000, Jˇhann B. Gu­mundsson wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-02-17 at 22:59 +0100, Christoph Wickert wrote:
> > In F15 under System we have:
> > * User Accounts (system-wide)
> > * Universal Access (per user)
> > * System Info (not even a setting)
> > * Software Updates (per user)
> > * Date and Time (system-wide)
> > * Color (per user unless you click "make default")
> >
> > I think this list is inconsistent.
>
> Agreed.
>
> I think this can be solved by hiding all system-wide settings from user
> accounts that don't have the account type "Administrator"

Except that for most of the settings, the line between preferences and
settings is quite blurry (for example, the "Date & Time" allows you to
change the timezone for the system, but also your preference for 12h or
24h clock display).

> One thing that are tied to those settings that it's hard to different
> when your are being asked to provide the root password or the logged in
> user password or the "Administrator" password.

That's a very fair point. File it upstream please.

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Bastien Nocera 02-18-2011 12:12 AM

Per user vs. system settings in GNOME 3 (was How do we change fonts now)
 
On Fri, 2011-02-18 at 00:26 +0000, Jˇhann B. Gu­mundsson wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-02-17 at 23:32 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> > Except that we won't be taking decisions from discussions within the
> > Red
> > Hat bugzilla (which wouldn't be well perceived within the upstream
> > community), and that you'll just be making us do the work of moving
> > the
> > bug, taking into consideration whether the bug is worthwhile moving,
> > after we had a chance to look at it.
>
> It falls under packager/maintainer responsibility to act as a liaison
> between upstream and downstream.
>
> When reporters are ready and willing they themselves will join and start
> working directly with upstream whether that upstream consist of a single
> application or a whole community such as the Gnome one.

Sorry, just not many hours in the day to handle both the downstream and
the upstream bugzilla.

Given that the UI freeze is on Monday for GNOME 3, I'm probably not
going to get a chance of looking at bugs in the Red Hat bugzilla before
the F15 release, unless it's a blocker.

If we had people triaging bugs for the core GNOME desktop, it would
certainly help, but we don't. So I focus on the upstream bugzilla, which
is more likely to be current.

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Jˇhann "B." Gu­mundsson 02-18-2011 12:45 AM

Per user vs. system settings in GNOME 3 (was How do we change fonts now)
 
On Thu, 2011-02-17 at 23:57 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> Except that for most of the settings, the line between preferences and
> settings is quite blurry (for example, the "Date & Time" allows you to
> change the timezone for the system, but also your preference for 12h
> or
> 24h clock display).

That's probably the reason why changing the clock to 24H reporting in
your account which has a role as administrator is not reflected to the
clock present in GDM.

I'm not so sure why you want to allow each user to change the time/clock
settings et all that should just be handled by the administrator from my
perspective.

>
> > One thing that are tied to those settings that it's hard to
> different
> > when your are being asked to provide the root password or the logged
> in
> > user password or the "Administrator" password.
>
> That's a very fair point. File it upstream please.

You do realize that if I wanted to participate upstream in any way or
form we would be having that discussion there not on this list and that
applies probably to most Fedora community members since most if not all
of us are very capable of joining and participating in the upstream
community's chooses we do so and that's something the Desktop team seems
to be having trouble to understand and or grasp since you( as in the
Desktop team ) are pushing the upstream Gnome bit strongly on Fedora
community these days or so it seems...

Speaking for myself I have chosen to settle on participating in one
community and that community is the Fedora community and even if I
wanted to be a part of more then one community I simply don't have the
time and even if I did have the time my first choice would not be the
Gnome community due to various reasons.

JBG

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Bill Nottingham 02-18-2011 01:00 AM

Per user vs. system settings in GNOME 3 (was How do we change fonts now)
 
Jˇhann B. Gu­mundsson (johannbg@gmail.com) said:
> On Thu, 2011-02-17 at 23:57 +0000, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> > That's a very fair point. File it upstream please.
>
> You do realize that if I wanted to participate upstream in any way or
> form we would be having that discussion there not on this list and that
> applies probably to most Fedora community members since most if not all
> of us are very capable of joining and participating in the upstream
> community's chooses we do so and that's something the Desktop team seems
> to be having trouble to understand and or grasp since you( as in the
> Desktop team ) are pushing the upstream Gnome bit strongly on Fedora
> community these days or so it seems...
>
> Speaking for myself I have chosen to settle on participating in one
> community and that community is the Fedora community and even if I
> wanted to be a part of more then one community I simply don't have the
> time and even if I did have the time my first choice would not be the
> Gnome community due to various reasons.

So, when told of the best, quickest, most efficient way to get your
problem solved, you'd rather write condescending bullshit that justifies
*not* getting involved, rather than work to solve your issues? Seriously?

Bill
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Bill Nottingham 02-21-2011 04:39 PM

Per user vs. system settings in GNOME 3 (was How do we change fonts now)
 
Jˇhann B. Gu­mundsson (johannbg@gmail.com) said:
> I guess me been spending now 2 hours trying to recreate one of those
> tough to catch bugs ( 678448 ) hard to duplicate, it does not always
> crash bug in evolution at 03:00 in the morning trying to catch that
> sucker to give the maintainer actually something to work with is not
> considered contribution in your books or being involved...

Nowhere did I say that. What I said is...

> Owen has made it perfectly clear to me that they wont be fixing any UI
> Design ( bugs ) before GNOME 3.0 So excuse me that I dont jump on a
> horse ride to Gnome land file a UI design ( bug ) that wont get fixed
> anyway before we release F15....

... if you have interest in getting a bug fixed, then work where the
maintainers of the software work to get their issues handled, wherever
possible.

Is it a pain sometimes? Absolutely.
Does it require sublimating your ego? Yes.

But it's the best way *to actually get your issues fixed*!

> Regarding the whole file upstream mantra that just takes the load of the
> maintainer in question and puts it on the reporters.

That's an unfortunate reality of how it works best.

Take two scenarios:

- A piece of software, with an upstream bug tracker. The maintainer is
expected to work there, take the lists of issues that need fixed, track
their issues there, etc.
- A piece of software, where the maintainer is expected to balance their
issues across ten separate downstream bugtrackers, people that just send
them random e-mail, people that poke them on irc on multiple networks,
and so on.

Sure, the second of these takes the load off the reporters. But it doesn't
actually work well to develop software coherently, remember all the issues
that need addressed, and so on.

> Today we are focusing on X that would require us to have an upstream X
> account tomorrow we are testing KDE that would require us to have on
> upstream KDE account on sunday it x on monday it's y. etc etc I'm pretty
> sure you can do the math here..

*shrug* I have a bz account at FreeDesktop, GNOME, KDE (iirc, haven't
used it much), even the pit of despair that was/is the SF bug tracker. I'm
still alive.

> Now let's say I was new I had interest to join the reporters group of QA
> and I have barely gone through our documentation and learned our
> bugzilla behavior when it's demanded of me that I create account and go
> through upstream documentation to learn their bugzilla behavior to file
> bug there ahh.. but it gets more complicated not all upstream is using
> bugzilla let's all increase the learning curve for the new guy just so
> we can save the maintainer some time...

The new guys (aka, end users?) that don't have an understanding of processes
should probably not be using the same bug trackers as the developers, for
better or worse. (It's why most organizations don't have engineering
working on anything that comes through support, for example.) Experienced
people taking leadership positions in testing, development, packaging
should be held to a higher standard, IMO.

> So if you feel what I wrote was some condescending bullshit then by all
> mean feel that way everybody has a right of their own opinion.
>
> From my perspective it seriously feels like I need to draw a picture for
> people to understand what I'm getting at when maintainers scream
> upstream because those maintainers usually look at us reporters as a
> nuance and have a hard time looking at things from our side...

To put it simply; you had an issue. You are *asking* someone to fix it
for you. They mentioned the best way to get it addressed. You then
responded that you refuse to operate that way based on your principles
of how development should work. There's almost no way that doesn't come off
as arrogant and obnoxious, which is generally *NOT* the best way to
influence people to fix the issues that you have.

Bill
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