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Old 02-11-2011, 10:16 AM
Christoph Wickert
 
Default Future of panel applets

What is the future of panel applets?

A lot of them (all?) failed to build in the ongoing mass rebuild, so I
wonder
* if they will be completely dropped or still work with
gnome-panel in fallback mode?
* if we should continue maintaining then and if not, if there are
any plans to make gnome-panel obsolete the orphaned applets?

I know that GNOME 3 is a big step ahead, but frankly speaking I'm a
little worried about the massive impact on other packages / desktops /
maintainers on the one hand and the lack of communication on the other.

Can you please provide the maintainers more info in order to reduce the
fallout we currently see in rawhide?

Regards,
Christoph

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Old 02-11-2011, 02:13 PM
"Clyde E. Kunkel"
 
Default Future of panel applets

On 02/11/2011 06:16 AM, Christoph Wickert wrote:
> What is the future of panel applets?
>
> A lot of them (all?) failed to build in the ongoing mass rebuild, so I
> wonder
> * if they will be completely dropped or still work with
> gnome-panel in fallback mode?
> * if we should continue maintaining then and if not, if there are
> any plans to make gnome-panel obsolete the orphaned applets?
>
> I know that GNOME 3 is a big step ahead, but frankly speaking I'm a
> little worried about the massive impact on other packages / desktops /
> maintainers on the one hand and the lack of communication on the other.
>
> Can you please provide the maintainers more info in order to reduce the
> fallout we currently see in rawhide?
>
> Regards,
> Christoph
>

Also, where has the functionality they provide gone? I don't see
equivalent functions in gnome shell. (Maybe I need to look harder?)

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Old 02-11-2011, 02:46 PM
Colin Walters
 
Default Future of panel applets

On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 6:16 AM, Christoph Wickert
<christoph.wickert@googlemail.com> wrote:
> What is the future of panel applets?

There is none in Fedora right now.

> A lot of them (all?) failed to build in the ongoing mass rebuild, so I
> wonder
> * * ** if they will be completely dropped or still work with
> * * * *gnome-panel in fallback mode?

I don't think it makes sense to invest a lot of engineering time into
fallback; so it will likely be very close to what it is now. If an
applet is adapted to the changes in libpanel-applet-3.0 I guess it
could work in fallback.

> * * ** if we should continue maintaining then and if not, if there are
> * * * *any plans to make gnome-panel obsolete the orphaned applets?

Depends on the particular applet upstream I guess.

> I know that GNOME 3 is a big step ahead, but frankly speaking I'm a
> little worried about the massive impact on other packages / desktops /
> maintainers on the one hand and the lack of communication on the other.

I hope the above helps.
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Old 02-11-2011, 02:51 PM
James Laska
 
Default Future of panel applets

On Fri, 2011-02-11 at 10:46 -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
+AD4 On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 6:16 AM, Christoph Wickert
+AD4 +ADw-christoph.wickert+AEA-googlemail.com+AD4 wrote:
+AD4 +AD4 What is the future of panel applets?
+AD4
+AD4 There is none in Fedora right now.
+AD4
+AD4 +AD4 A lot of them (all?) failed to build in the ongoing mass rebuild, so I
+AD4 +AD4 wonder
+AD4 +AD4 +ACo if they will be completely dropped or still work with
+AD4 +AD4 gnome-panel in fallback mode?
+AD4
+AD4 I don't think it makes sense to invest a lot of engineering time into
+AD4 fallback+ADs so it will likely be very close to what it is now. If an
+AD4 applet is adapted to the changes in libpanel-applet-3.0 I guess it
+AD4 could work in fallback.
+AD4
+AD4 +AD4 +ACo if we should continue maintaining then and if not, if there are
+AD4 +AD4 any plans to make gnome-panel obsolete the orphaned applets?
+AD4
+AD4 Depends on the particular applet upstream I guess.
+AD4
+AD4 +AD4 I know that GNOME 3 is a big step ahead, but frankly speaking I'm a
+AD4 +AD4 little worried about the massive impact on other packages / desktops /
+AD4 +AD4 maintainers on the one hand and the lack of communication on the other.
+AD4
+AD4 I hope the above helps.

I suspect this will be a common question from applet maintainers.

Colin, is there something we can add to the questions/comments section
of the feature page +AFs-1+AF0 on this topic? Perhaps a pointer to a migration
guide wiki, or some developer instructions?

Thanks,
James

+AFs-1+AF0
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Gnome3+ACM-Comments+AF8-and+AF8-Discussion
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Old 02-11-2011, 02:54 PM
Colin Walters
 
Default Future of panel applets

On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 10:51 AM, James Laska <jlaska@redhat.com> wrote:
>
> Colin, is there something we can add to the questions/comments section
> of the feature page +AFs-1+AF0 on this topic? *Perhaps a pointer to a migration
> guide wiki, or some developer instructions?

The best reference is this mail:

http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2009-April/msg00267.html
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Old 02-11-2011, 04:09 PM
Christoph Wickert
 
Default Future of panel applets

Hi Colin,

thanks for the info.

Am Freitag, den 11.02.2011, 10:46 -0500 schrieb Colin Walters:
> On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 6:16 AM, Christoph Wickert
> <christoph.wickert@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > What is the future of panel applets?
>
> There is none in Fedora right now.

What does this mean for me as a maintainer of several applets?

> > A lot of them (all?) failed to build in the ongoing mass rebuild, so I
> > wonder
> > * if they will be completely dropped or still work with
> > gnome-panel in fallback mode?
>
> I don't think it makes sense to invest a lot of engineering time into
> fallback; so it will likely be very close to what it is now. If an
> applet is adapted to the changes in libpanel-applet-3.0 I guess it
> could work in fallback.

OK, it seems like some of my packages built successfully, so I assume
applets are not completely dead for now, at least from a technical POV.

> > * if we should continue maintaining then and if not, if there are
> > any plans to make gnome-panel obsolete the orphaned applets?
>
> Depends on the particular applet upstream I guess.

I don't think so, I was rather thinking of the packaging site. We need
to have proper Provides/Obsoletes in place for a clean upgrade.

Regards,
Christoph

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Old 02-11-2011, 04:22 PM
Colin Walters
 
Default Future of panel applets

On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 12:09 PM, Christoph Wickert
<christoph.wickert@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> What does this mean for me as a maintainer of several applets?

Maintainer as in spec file or upstream? I assume you mean as spec
file. In that case I think it again depends on the people writing the
code; if there are none or it's not going to be updated, then it
should probably just be removed from the archive. If you mean as in
upstream, see the mail I linked to.

> I don't think so, I was rather thinking of the packaging site. We need
> to have proper Provides/Obsoletes in place for a clean upgrade.

The issue here is that if you had one of these installed,
preupgrade/yum will prefer preserving the applet package over
upgrading the OS core? And that we work around that by adding some
Obsoletes to some random package in the core OS to trick it? Okay, I
guess, though it feels weird. These things are very similar to
Firefox extensions, and they have an explicit UI which says "The
following addons are no longer compatible...".

The case here is similar to applications which use non-stable API from
the base OS or any libraries from extras that changed; if those
libraries are no longer available in a base upgrade we'd need to bring
that to the user's attention ideally before the upgrade.
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Old 02-11-2011, 05:11 PM
Jeroen van Meeuwen
 
Default Future of panel applets

On Fri, 11 Feb 2011 12:22:36 -0500, Colin Walters <walters@verbum.org>
wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 12:09 PM, Christoph Wickert
> <christoph.wickert@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> I don't think so, I was rather thinking of the packaging site. We need
>> to have proper Provides/Obsoletes in place for a clean upgrade.
>
> The issue here is that if you had one of these installed,
> preupgrade/yum will prefer preserving the applet package over
> upgrading the OS core? And that we work around that by adding some
> Obsoletes to some random package in the core OS to trick it? Okay, I
> guess, though it feels weird. These things are very similar to
> Firefox extensions, and they have an explicit UI which says "The
> following addons are no longer compatible...".
>

The difference being Firefox extensions do not have RPM packaging
dependencies on a program that is being overhauled as much as GNOME is.
Most GNOME applets require one or the other .so version provided by a
gnome-* package, right? This would pin down the original gnome-* package
which is supposed to be upgraded. Similar, yes, but very much so not the
same thing.

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Old 02-11-2011, 05:15 PM
Colin Walters
 
Default Future of panel applets

On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 1:11 PM, Jeroen van Meeuwen <kanarip@kanarip.com> wrote:
>
> The difference being Firefox extensions do not have RPM packaging
> dependencies on a program that is being overhauled as much as GNOME is.
> Most GNOME applets require one or the other .so version provided by a
> gnome-* package, right? This would pin down the original gnome-* package
> which is supposed to be upgraded. Similar, yes, but very much so not the
> same thing.

I'm not sure I understand the point you're making; what concretely are
you suggesting be done?
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Old 02-11-2011, 05:48 PM
seth vidal
 
Default Future of panel applets

On Fri, 2011-02-11 at 13:15 -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 1:11 PM, Jeroen van Meeuwen <kanarip@kanarip.com> wrote:
> >
> > The difference being Firefox extensions do not have RPM packaging
> > dependencies on a program that is being overhauled as much as GNOME is.
> > Most GNOME applets require one or the other .so version provided by a
> > gnome-* package, right? This would pin down the original gnome-* package
> > which is supposed to be upgraded. Similar, yes, but very much so not the
> > same thing.
>
> I'm not sure I understand the point you're making; what concretely are
> you suggesting be done?


So - there's a way for firefox to know that plugins are non-essential
and to ignore them in an upgrade. That they are plugins.

There's no way for yum to know that an applet is not essential. We have
no information to use to determine that 'if an update is being held up
by an applet remove the applet'.

that's what the obsoletes info is providing - that hint.

-sv


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