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Old 10-16-2010, 10:15 PM
Matthias Clasen
 
Default laughlin-backgrounds-gnome size increase

On Sat, 2010-10-16 at 19:34 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote:

> > That grew by 1MB, probably due to
> > increased complexity of the wallpaper. I'd investigate this one more
> > throughout if I were you.
>
> If I were or a member of the design team I would not push changes like
> this one that late. I think this level of carelessness is inappropriate.
>
> There are three solutions:
> * A gnome-desktop-libs package, but it is too late to change for
> F14.
> * Make gnome-desktop not depend on system-backgrounds-gnome.
> * Revert the changes on laughlin-backgrounds-gnome.

The system-backgrounds (-gnome) virtual provides were introduced with
for the explicit purpose of making gnome-desktop require them...

Imo, reverting the changes to the background packages is the most
conservative and appropriate action at this time.

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Old 10-17-2010, 01:38 AM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default laughlin-backgrounds-gnome size increase

On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 20:08:30 +0200,
Martin Sourada <martin.sourada@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 2010-10-16 at 12:43 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> > On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 12:32:54 -0500,
> > Charles Kerr <charles@transmissionbt.com> wrote:
> > > I don't have much experience with pngout, but it claims to be able to
> > > shave an extra 14% off these images' sizes. I tried it out on the
> > > four images in standard/ and got this result:
> >
> > While better lossless compression would be a good thing to be doing for
> > all of the artwork, I don't think that is going to help enough here.
> > Given the short amount of time, I don't think this approach (assuming it
> > was expanded to include a larger set of artwork) is going to be practical
> > as an immediate solution.
> Once, we used optipng for that, but the savings really aren't that much
> (depending on picture, about 10%) plus they're time-intensive.

But it should only be time intensive creating the image. It saves space
on every machine that they are installed on. 10% accross the board is
pretty good and you probably should be doing that. Not necessarily when you
are reviewing stuff, but once you start using them in packages you really
should be doing the better compression.
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Old 10-17-2010, 01:42 AM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default laughlin-backgrounds-gnome size increase

On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 18:12:06 -0400,
Matthias Clasen <mclasen@redhat.com> wrote:
>
> What are you trying to find out about what xml file ?

The file that defines background theme information. In this particular case:
/usr/share/backgrounds/laughlin/default/laughlin.xml

What I was hoping to find out is if you could specify fallback images if
the first choice image files don't exist. The idea was to make a single
config file that would both with and without having
laughlin-backgrounds-gnome installed and get the time of day stuff if
it is installed.
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Old 10-17-2010, 08:22 AM
Martin Sourada
 
Default laughlin-backgrounds-gnome size increase

On Sat, 2010-10-16 at 18:15 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> On Sat, 2010-10-16 at 19:34 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote:
>
> > > That grew by 1MB, probably due to
> > > increased complexity of the wallpaper. I'd investigate this one more
> > > throughout if I were you.
> >
> > If I were or a member of the design team I would not push changes like
> > this one that late. I think this level of carelessness is inappropriate.
> >
> > There are three solutions:
> > * A gnome-desktop-libs package, but it is too late to change for
> > F14.
> > * Make gnome-desktop not depend on system-backgrounds-gnome.
> > * Revert the changes on laughlin-backgrounds-gnome.
>
> The system-backgrounds (-gnome) virtual provides were introduced with
> for the explicit purpose of making gnome-desktop require them...
>
> Imo, reverting the changes to the background packages is the most
> conservative and appropriate action at this time.
This is a big no-no because:
* it would degrade the quality of wallpaper (yes, the time-of-day
addition wasn't the only thing that was done to the wallpaper)
* it would reintroduce errors in cc-by attribution for the extras
subpackage

Since the time is tight I'm going now to do the following update
* move the time-of-day images to l-b-animated(-gnome), rename and
move there also current XMLs with description and info (so that
it can be installed concurrent with the default)
* recreate the XMLs for non-animated wallpaper and put them in
l-b-gnome
* run optipng on all images

This would effectively revert the size bump of l-b-gnome while keeping
the other changes and giving the user choice to use animated wallpaper.

Would be nice though, if you could then change the desktop spin
kickstart to use the animated version of the wallpaper by default as
we'd like to see it used on it.

Thanks,
Martin
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Old 10-17-2010, 08:32 AM
Christoph Wickert
 
Default laughlin-backgrounds-gnome size increase

Am Samstag, den 16.10.2010, 18:15 -0400 schrieb Matthias Clasen:

> Imo, reverting the changes to the background packages is the most
> conservative and appropriate action at this time.

+1. At this stage we need to be conservative because of our release
policies.

Regards,
Christoph


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Old 10-17-2010, 09:28 AM
Martin Sourada
 
Default laughlin-backgrounds-gnome size increase

On Sun, 2010-10-17 at 10:22 +0200, Martin Sourada wrote:
> On Sat, 2010-10-16 at 18:15 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> > On Sat, 2010-10-16 at 19:34 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote:
> >
> > > > That grew by 1MB, probably due to
> > > > increased complexity of the wallpaper. I'd investigate this one more
> > > > throughout if I were you.
> > >
> > > If I were or a member of the design team I would not push changes like
> > > this one that late. I think this level of carelessness is inappropriate.
> > >
> > > There are three solutions:
> > > * A gnome-desktop-libs package, but it is too late to change for
> > > F14.
> > > * Make gnome-desktop not depend on system-backgrounds-gnome.
> > > * Revert the changes on laughlin-backgrounds-gnome.
> >
> > The system-backgrounds (-gnome) virtual provides were introduced with
> > for the explicit purpose of making gnome-desktop require them...
> >
> > Imo, reverting the changes to the background packages is the most
> > conservative and appropriate action at this time.
> This is a big no-no because:
> * it would degrade the quality of wallpaper (yes, the time-of-day
> addition wasn't the only thing that was done to the wallpaper)
> * it would reintroduce errors in cc-by attribution for the extras
> subpackage
>
> Since the time is tight I'm going now to do the following update
> * move the time-of-day images to l-b-animated(-gnome), rename and
> move there also current XMLs with description and info (so that
> it can be installed concurrent with the default)
> * recreate the XMLs for non-animated wallpaper and put them in
> l-b-gnome
> * run optipng on all images
>
> This would effectively revert the size bump of l-b-gnome while keeping
> the other changes and giving the user choice to use animated wallpaper.
>
> Would be nice though, if you could then change the desktop spin
> kickstart to use the animated version of the wallpaper by default as
> we'd like to see it used on it.
>
Ok, I'm done with the packaging, just waiting for the optipng to finish
(the already processed images are all seeing slightly above 10% decrease
in size). Note that the changes are such that they revert the default
wallpaper "infrastructure" to beta version while keeping the new images,
move the time-of-day images into l-b-animated and introduce
l-b-animated-gnome which contains XMLs needed for gnome. So effectively
there is almost zero possibility breaking something by this change.

I'll let you know when the update is ready so you can give karma.

And I reiterate once again. Just un-pushing the previous update is *not*
an option.

Thanks,
Martin

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Old 10-17-2010, 11:09 AM
Martin Sourada
 
Default laughlin-backgrounds-gnome size increase

On Sun, 2010-10-17 at 11:28 +0200, Martin Sourada wrote:
> On Sun, 2010-10-17 at 10:22 +0200, Martin Sourada wrote:
> > On Sat, 2010-10-16 at 18:15 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> > > On Sat, 2010-10-16 at 19:34 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote:
> > >
> > > > > That grew by 1MB, probably due to
> > > > > increased complexity of the wallpaper. I'd investigate this one more
> > > > > throughout if I were you.
> > > >
> > > > If I were or a member of the design team I would not push changes like
> > > > this one that late. I think this level of carelessness is inappropriate.
> > > >
> > > > There are three solutions:
> > > > * A gnome-desktop-libs package, but it is too late to change for
> > > > F14.
> > > > * Make gnome-desktop not depend on system-backgrounds-gnome.
> > > > * Revert the changes on laughlin-backgrounds-gnome.
> > >
> > > The system-backgrounds (-gnome) virtual provides were introduced with
> > > for the explicit purpose of making gnome-desktop require them...
> > >
> > > Imo, reverting the changes to the background packages is the most
> > > conservative and appropriate action at this time.
> > This is a big no-no because:
> > * it would degrade the quality of wallpaper (yes, the time-of-day
> > addition wasn't the only thing that was done to the wallpaper)
> > * it would reintroduce errors in cc-by attribution for the extras
> > subpackage
> >
> > Since the time is tight I'm going now to do the following update
> > * move the time-of-day images to l-b-animated(-gnome), rename and
> > move there also current XMLs with description and info (so that
> > it can be installed concurrent with the default)
> > * recreate the XMLs for non-animated wallpaper and put them in
> > l-b-gnome
> > * run optipng on all images
> >
> > This would effectively revert the size bump of l-b-gnome while keeping
> > the other changes and giving the user choice to use animated wallpaper.
> >
> > Would be nice though, if you could then change the desktop spin
> > kickstart to use the animated version of the wallpaper by default as
> > we'd like to see it used on it.
> >
> Ok, I'm done with the packaging, just waiting for the optipng to finish
> (the already processed images are all seeing slightly above 10% decrease
> in size). Note that the changes are such that they revert the default
> wallpaper "infrastructure" to beta version while keeping the new images,
> move the time-of-day images into l-b-animated and introduce
> l-b-animated-gnome which contains XMLs needed for gnome. So effectively
> there is almost zero possibility breaking something by this change.
>
> I'll let you know when the update is ready so you can give karma.
>
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/laughlin-backgrounds-14.1.0-1.fc14

Please log in and give karma. Given the change is small I set the
autokarma threshold to 2. It should make the spins small enough again.
Given the nature of changes, the only packages that might need quick
test are l-b-gnome and l-b-animated-gnome

As I said before, this is IMHO the best short-term solution for the
problem, we should however rethink how the default wallpaper is selected
(especially given that some spins use different default wallpapers) for
F15 and onward. I'll propose something later (maybe today, maybe
tomorrow, maybe next week, next month, but definitely before F15 Alpha).

Martin
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Old 10-17-2010, 11:11 AM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default laughlin-backgrounds-gnome size increase

On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 13:09:04 +0200,
Martin Sourada <martin.sourada@gmail.com> wrote:
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/laughlin-backgrounds-14.1.0-1.fc14
>
> Please log in and give karma. Given the change is small I set the
> autokarma threshold to 2. It should make the spins small enough again.
> Given the nature of changes, the only packages that might need quick
> test are l-b-gnome and l-b-animated-gnome

Thanks for doing this.

We need a proven packager since this package is on the crit path list.
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Old 10-17-2010, 11:44 AM
Martin Sourada
 
Default laughlin-backgrounds-gnome size increase

On Sun, 2010-10-17 at 06:11 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 13:09:04 +0200,
> Martin Sourada <martin.sourada@gmail.com> wrote:
> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/laughlin-backgrounds-14.1.0-1.fc14
> >
> > Please log in and give karma. Given the change is small I set the
> > autokarma threshold to 2. It should make the spins small enough again.
> > Given the nature of changes, the only packages that might need quick
> > test are l-b-gnome and l-b-animated-gnome
>
> Thanks for doing this.
>
> We need a proven packager since this package is on the crit path list.
Is it? The e-mails I get from bodhi are missing the [CRITPATH]
keyword...

Martin
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Old 10-17-2010, 12:00 PM
drago01
 
Default laughlin-backgrounds-gnome size increase

On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 8:08 PM, Martin Sourada
<martin.sourada@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 2010-10-16 at 12:43 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
>> On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 12:32:54 -0500,
>> * Charles Kerr <charles@transmissionbt.com> wrote:
>> > I don't have much experience with pngout, but it claims to be able to
>> > shave an extra 14% off these images' sizes. *I tried it out on the
>> > four images in standard/ and got this result:
>>
>> While better lossless compression would be a good thing to be doing for
>> all of the artwork, I don't think that is going to help enough here.
>> Given the short amount of time, I don't think this approach (assuming it
>> was expanded to include a larger set of artwork) is going to be practical
>> as an immediate solution.
> Once, we used optipng for that, but the savings really aren't that much
> (depending on picture, about 10%) plus they're time-intensive.

10% is a rather nice improvement ...

"plus they're time-intensive"

That doesn't matter the extra time is *buildtime* not actual runtime.
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