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Old 10-16-2010, 05:34 PM
Christoph Wickert
 
Default laughlin-backgrounds-gnome size increase

Am Samstag, den 16.10.2010, 18:42 +0200 schrieb Martin Sourada:
> On Sat, 2010-10-16 at 11:12 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> > On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 17:26:29 +0200,
> > Martin Sourada <martin.sourada@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > It would help to list which spins went oversize and what's their target
> > > size. So general info:
> >
> > broffice and xfce are the two that went over their targets. They need to
> > get back under 703 MiB. Games was almost hit, but still has enough cushion
> > that I can handle the hedgewars small increase in size which will be
> > showing up in a push tomorrow unless it gets negative karma before then.
> > But I'm still pretty close and will probably still implement whatever
> > we do for broffice and xfce.
> >
> AFAIK XFCE should require only -single, unless they pull
> gnome-desktop(3) for some reason.

libgnome-desktop is required by cheese, control-center and
gnome-settings-daemon. We could drop cheese, but we wont get rid of the
rest:
* control-center is required by gnome-bluetooth
* gnome-settings-daemon is required by gdm

There is no alternative to gdm and gnome-blueetooth [1].

> That grew by 1MB, probably due to
> increased complexity of the wallpaper. I'd investigate this one more
> throughout if I were you.

If I were or a member of the design team I would not push changes like
this one that late. I think this level of carelessness is inappropriate.

There are three solutions:
* A gnome-desktop-libs package, but it is too late to change for
F14.
* Make gnome-desktop not depend on system-backgrounds-gnome.
* Revert the changes on laughlin-backgrounds-gnome.

Regards,
Christoph

[1] blueman, the only alternative to gnome-bluetooth depends on
gnome-session which depends on control-center, so we end up with
gnome-desktop again.

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Old 10-16-2010, 05:40 PM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default laughlin-backgrounds-gnome size increase

On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 19:17:54 +0200,
Martin Sourada <martin.sourada@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 2010-10-16 at 11:52 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> >
> > Is there someplace that describes the details of that xml file?
> > I am trying to search through the gnome documentation but haven't found
> > the reference for that file yet.
> I have no idea These things are really badly documented... Most you
> can get is inspecting the code directly...

Any pointers to where in the code I should be looking?

I am about out of time now, but can probably look at it tonight. It would
help to know where to start looking.
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Old 10-16-2010, 05:43 PM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default laughlin-backgrounds-gnome size increase

On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 12:32:54 -0500,
Charles Kerr <charles@transmissionbt.com> wrote:
> I don't have much experience with pngout, but it claims to be able to
> shave an extra 14% off these images' sizes. I tried it out on the
> four images in standard/ and got this result:

While better lossless compression would be a good thing to be doing for
all of the artwork, I don't think that is going to help enough here.
Given the short amount of time, I don't think this approach (assuming it
was expanded to include a larger set of artwork) is going to be practical
as an immediate solution.
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Old 10-16-2010, 05:48 PM
Martin Sourada
 
Default laughlin-backgrounds-gnome size increase

On Sat, 2010-10-16 at 19:34 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote:
> Am Samstag, den 16.10.2010, 18:42 +0200 schrieb Martin Sourada:
> > On Sat, 2010-10-16 at 11:12 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> > > On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 17:26:29 +0200,
> > > Martin Sourada <martin.sourada@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > It would help to list which spins went oversize and what's their target
> > > > size. So general info:
> > >
> > > broffice and xfce are the two that went over their targets. They need to
> > > get back under 703 MiB. Games was almost hit, but still has enough cushion
> > > that I can handle the hedgewars small increase in size which will be
> > > showing up in a push tomorrow unless it gets negative karma before then.
> > > But I'm still pretty close and will probably still implement whatever
> > > we do for broffice and xfce.
> > >
> > AFAIK XFCE should require only -single, unless they pull
> > gnome-desktop(3) for some reason.
>
> libgnome-desktop is required by cheese, control-center and
> gnome-settings-daemon. We could drop cheese, but we wont get rid of the
> rest:
> * control-center is required by gnome-bluetooth
> * gnome-settings-daemon is required by gdm
>
> There is no alternative to gdm and gnome-blueetooth [1].
>
> > That grew by 1MB, probably due to
> > increased complexity of the wallpaper. I'd investigate this one more
> > throughout if I were you.
>
> If I were or a member of the design team I would not push changes like
> this one that late. I think this level of carelessness is inappropriate.
>
This is how design works. You cannot make time-of-day versions of the
wallpaper sooner than you have final design. You cannot make time-of-day
versions at all if you are late with the final design...

> There are three solutions:
> * A gnome-desktop-libs package, but it is too late to change for
> F14.
That would be sensible and probably better solution F15 onward.

> * Make gnome-desktop not depend on system-backgrounds-gnome.
That would work as short term solution, but we have to be very careful
to install s-b-g wherever gnome desktop is installed and uses
system-wide default wallpaper.

> * Revert the changes on laughlin-backgrounds-gnome.
You'd have the whole design-team against you for that...

Martin
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Old 10-16-2010, 05:48 PM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default laughlin-backgrounds-gnome size increase

On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 19:34:24 +0200,
Christoph Wickert <christoph.wickert@googlemail.com> wrote:
> * Make gnome-desktop not depend on system-backgrounds-gnome.

I think that one is doable (slightly differently). But there is an issue with
the default them. At the worst I think the time of day theme could be made an
alternative instead of the default.

Reverting will probably be about as hard and will not even provide the
time of day theme as an alternate.
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Old 10-16-2010, 06:07 PM
Martin Sourada
 
Default laughlin-backgrounds-gnome size increase

On Sat, 2010-10-16 at 12:40 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> Any pointers to where in the code I should be looking?
>
> I am about out of time now, but can probably look at it tonight. It would
> help to know where to start looking.
Cannot say for sure, but this would probably be a good start
http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-desktop/tree/libgnome-desktop/gnome-bg.c

Martin
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Old 10-16-2010, 06:08 PM
Bruno Wolff III
 
Default laughlin-backgrounds-gnome size increase

On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 19:48:29 +0200,
Martin Sourada <martin.sourada@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 2010-10-16 at 19:34 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote:
>
> > * Make gnome-desktop not depend on system-backgrounds-gnome.
> That would work as short term solution, but we have to be very careful
> to install s-b-g wherever gnome desktop is installed and uses
> system-wide default wallpaper.

You misunderstand. gnome-desktop is going to be installed without
laughlin-backgrounds-gnome being installed in this proposal. The question
would be how to make that work. One option is not having the time of
day based background the default.
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Old 10-16-2010, 06:08 PM
Martin Sourada
 
Default laughlin-backgrounds-gnome size increase

On Sat, 2010-10-16 at 12:43 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 12:32:54 -0500,
> Charles Kerr <charles@transmissionbt.com> wrote:
> > I don't have much experience with pngout, but it claims to be able to
> > shave an extra 14% off these images' sizes. I tried it out on the
> > four images in standard/ and got this result:
>
> While better lossless compression would be a good thing to be doing for
> all of the artwork, I don't think that is going to help enough here.
> Given the short amount of time, I don't think this approach (assuming it
> was expanded to include a larger set of artwork) is going to be practical
> as an immediate solution.
Once, we used optipng for that, but the savings really aren't that much
(depending on picture, about 10%) plus they're time-intensive.

Martin
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Old 10-16-2010, 06:37 PM
Martin Sourada
 
Default laughlin-backgrounds-gnome size increase

On Sat, 2010-10-16 at 13:08 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 19:48:29 +0200,
> Martin Sourada <martin.sourada@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, 2010-10-16 at 19:34 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote:
> >
> > > * Make gnome-desktop not depend on system-backgrounds-gnome.
> > That would work as short term solution, but we have to be very careful
> > to install s-b-g wherever gnome desktop is installed and uses
> > system-wide default wallpaper.
>
> You misunderstand. gnome-desktop is going to be installed without
> laughlin-backgrounds-gnome being installed in this proposal. The question
> would be how to make that work. One option is not having the time of
> day based background the default.
I'm under the impression that you need to avoid it for broffice an xfce
spins only. We definitely want it installed by default on desktop spin,
design suite, etc., i.e. everywhere where gnome desktop is installed and
size isn't an issue.

I.e. IMHO we need solve two cases:
* it is installed and used by default
* gnome-desktop is being installed, but not the time-of-day
wallpaper but it still works.

In short I don't see any other solution (that would satisfy both
parties) than two conflicting defaults... Yeah, if we could make one xml
work for both cases that would solve the issue nicely and in better way,
but I highly doubt that's possible.

Or maybe making it work using 'alternatives' (I totally don't know how
and for what this system works, but maybe worth investigating) -- having
one .xml symlinked to the simple .xml one unless the advanced package
gets installed (we could probably handle it via %post section) and then
add the advanced package to comps where desirable (would it work
correctly for spins?).

Martin
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Old 10-16-2010, 10:12 PM
Matthias Clasen
 
Default laughlin-backgrounds-gnome size increase

On Sat, 2010-10-16 at 12:40 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 19:17:54 +0200,
> Martin Sourada <martin.sourada@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, 2010-10-16 at 11:52 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> > >
> > > Is there someplace that describes the details of that xml file?
> > > I am trying to search through the gnome documentation but haven't found
> > > the reference for that file yet.
> > I have no idea These things are really badly documented... Most you
> > can get is inspecting the code directly...
>
> Any pointers to where in the code I should be looking?
>
> I am about out of time now, but can probably look at it tonight. It would
> help to know where to start looking.

What are you trying to find out about what xml file ?

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