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-   -   Connecting to proprietary web services (was F14: what to do about pino / twitter) (http://www.linux-archive.org/fedora-desktop/434414-connecting-proprietary-web-services-f14-what-do-about-pino-twitter.html)

Adam Williamson 10-01-2010 08:03 PM

Connecting to proprietary web services (was F14: what to do about pino / twitter)
 
On Fri, 2010-10-01 at 15:50 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> On Fri, 2010-10-01 at 14:52 -0400, Colin Walters wrote:
> > This is definitely scope creeping the discussion here, but I'm coming
> > round to the viewpoint that Fedora shoudn't ship any application in
> > the default install whose primary purpose is to connect to proprietary
> > web services, or at least not ones configured by default to do so.
> > (All apps are of course free to be in the repositories).
> >
> > This would dovetail nicely with making it not suck to install applications.
>
> I don't think this is a useful direction to take the F14/pino problem
> into. If we stop installing applications that are useful for users, then
> the users will go somewhere else.

This is the same argument you can make with proprietary hardware
drivers. Ultimately we've always agreed with the FSF position that
encouraging the use of proprietary software just makes it less likely
that free software will be written, so we shouldn't do it.

The situation here is exactly analogous. If we choose to, say, ship a
client configured to connect to identi.ca by default instead, we're
putting our weight behind freedom in a very important area, just as
important as hardware support.

I'd say we shouldn't adopt contradictory policies here.
--
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net

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Mike McLean 10-01-2010 09:08 PM

Connecting to proprietary web services (was F14: what to do about pino / twitter)
 
On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 4:03 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam@redhat.com> wrote:
> The situation here is exactly analogous. If we choose to, say, ship a
> client configured to connect to identi.ca by default instead, we're
> putting our weight behind freedom in a very important area, just as
> important as hardware support.

Both pino and gwibber support identi.ca. Gwibber also supports generic
StatusNet services. Neither app seems to show preferential treatment
to a particular service.
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Gerald Henriksen 10-02-2010 12:29 AM

Connecting to proprietary web services (was F14: what to do about pino / twitter)
 
On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 13:03:51 -0700, you wrote:

>On Fri, 2010-10-01 at 15:50 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
>> On Fri, 2010-10-01 at 14:52 -0400, Colin Walters wrote:
>> > This is definitely scope creeping the discussion here, but I'm coming
>> > round to the viewpoint that Fedora shoudn't ship any application in
>> > the default install whose primary purpose is to connect to proprietary
>> > web services, or at least not ones configured by default to do so.
>> > (All apps are of course free to be in the repositories).
>> >
>> > This would dovetail nicely with making it not suck to install applications.
>>
>> I don't think this is a useful direction to take the F14/pino problem
>> into. If we stop installing applications that are useful for users, then
>> the users will go somewhere else.
>
>This is the same argument you can make with proprietary hardware
>drivers. Ultimately we've always agreed with the FSF position that
>encouraging the use of proprietary software just makes it less likely
>that free software will be written, so we shouldn't do it.
>
>The situation here is exactly analogous. If we choose to, say, ship a
>client configured to connect to identi.ca by default instead, we're
>putting our weight behind freedom in a very important area, just as
>important as hardware support.

Pino does not connect to anything be default, you need an account in
order to connect to either twitter or identi.ca with a dedicated
client like pino.

The bigger question this brings up is where does Fedora draw the line.

Binary drivers are an easy case, they are bad in several ways for
Fedora. Bugs can't be fixed, they make figuring out what component is
at fault difficult, and most importantly if allowed to expand can lead
to a situation where a free, open source operating system is
impossible.

When you start talking about restricting software based on what it
connects to you are going into a very grey area.

If we ban Pino because it connects to proprietary twitter, then do we
also ban all the email clients? They can be used to connect to
proprietary mail servers.

How about Samba? Its purpose is to network with Windows.

How about Network Manager? Its used to connect to network devices
that are usually running proprietary software.

What about web browsers? Likely 90% of what users connect to are
based at least partially on proprietary software.

It would be somewhat ironic if Fedora, having just taken steps to
improve the user experience by creating rules regarding disruptive
updates, makes all the effort irrelevant by removing the software that
makes Fedora usuable by those users.

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Torstein Adolf Winterseth 10-04-2010 03:39 PM

Connecting to proprietary web services (was F14: what to do about pino / twitter)
 
2010/10/1 Adam Williamson <awilliam@redhat.com>:
> On Fri, 2010-10-01 at 15:50 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
>> On Fri, 2010-10-01 at 14:52 -0400, Colin Walters wrote:
>> > This is definitely scope creeping the discussion here, but I'm coming
>> > round to the viewpoint that Fedora shoudn't ship any application in
>> > the default install whose primary purpose is to connect to proprietary
>> > web services, or at least not ones configured by default to do so.
>> > (All apps are of course free to be in the repositories).
>> >
>> > This would dovetail nicely with making it not suck to install applications.
>>
>> I don't think this is a useful direction to take the F14/pino problem
>> into. If we stop installing applications that are useful for users, then
>> the users will go somewhere else.
>
> This is the same argument you can make with proprietary hardware
> drivers. Ultimately we've always agreed with the FSF position that
> encouraging the use of proprietary software just makes it less likely
> that free software will be written, so we shouldn't do it.
>
> The situation here is exactly analogous. If we choose to, say, ship a
> client configured to connect to identi.ca by default instead, we're
> putting our weight behind freedom in a very important area, just as
> important as hardware support.
>
> I'd say we shouldn't adopt contradictory policies here.

With that in mind. What about Rhythmbox, being installed by default,
defaults to having the Last.fm plugin enabled. Last.fm is proprietary
and there is a FaiF alternative, Libre.fm, available. There is a way
for Rhythmbox to use Libre.fm in stead, however that require you to
edit a GConf key. Proprietary and FaiF services are not given equal
opportunities here.

What to do about that? Have Rhythmbox preconfigured to Libre.fm by
default? Turn the Last.fm plugin off by default? Perhaps investing
some time making the plugin more agnostic to which services and have
it give users a fair choice.

As it is now, Libre.fm is pretty undiscoverable.
> --
> Adam Williamson
> Fedora QA Community Monkey
> IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
> http://www.happyassassin.net
>
--
Mvh / Kind regards
Torstein Adolf Winterseth
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Colin Walters 10-04-2010 03:51 PM

Connecting to proprietary web services (was F14: what to do about pino / twitter)
 
On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Torstein Adolf Winterseth
<torswin@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> With that in mind. What about Rhythmbox, being installed by default,
> defaults to having the Last.fm plugin enabled.

Basically applications like this would need to provide a "Search for
plugins" interface.
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