>On Fri, 2010-10-01 at 20:51 -0400, Jon Stanley wrote:
>> On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 8:36 PM, <herrmann@redhat.com> wrote:
>> > How would you define a "proprietary web service"?
>> >
>> > Is google such a service ? The only open protocol used by connecting any app to any of their servers is http, xmpp etc. Everything behind is closed. So we remove firefox ?
>>
>> Exactly. We've been down this road. Anything which can view arbitrary
>> content can be used to interact with proprietary services. Do we not
>> ship the Exchange support for Evolution? Do we not include f-spot (I
>> realize it's not in the default spin) because it's able to export to
>> Flickr (Shotwell can too, BTW)? Where does it stop?
>
>Those aren't the same thing. When it comes to a twitter client we're not
>talking about 'arbitrary content', we're talking about an app whose sole
>purpose is to provide *specific* content to a *specific* service. If
>pino is neutral between twitter and identi.ca by default, as someone
>suggested, then I think it's clearly fine.
So, to explore this line in the sand further, are we saying for a user
of Fedora:
1) it is okay to use twitter via a web browser (Firefox, Epiphany,
etc.)
2) it is not okay to use twitter via a dedicated client like Pino?
How exactly is this going to help the goal of freedom?
If anything this kind of arbitrary banning could end up hurting
freedom by encouraging people trying Fedora to instead either just go
back to an entirely proprietary system, or go with another
distribution that doesn't care about freedom as much.
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10-02-2010, 04:31 AM
Adam Williamson
F14: what to do about pino / twitter
On Fri, 2010-10-01 at 23:49 -0400, Gerald Henriksen wrote:
> >Those aren't the same thing. When it comes to a twitter client we're not
> >talking about 'arbitrary content', we're talking about an app whose sole
> >purpose is to provide *specific* content to a *specific* service. If
> >pino is neutral between twitter and identi.ca by default, as someone
> >suggested, then I think it's clearly fine.
>
> So, to explore this line in the sand further, are we saying for a user
> of Fedora:
>
> 1) it is okay to use twitter via a web browser (Firefox, Epiphany,
> etc.)
>
> 2) it is not okay to use twitter via a dedicated client like Pino?
>
> How exactly is this going to help the goal of freedom?
That's not the right way of looking at it. It's not about whether it's
'okay' or not. We hardly send stormtroopers out to people's houses to
investigate what software they use, after all. We don't shoot people for
using nvidia. We just don't *provide* it. Don't move the goalposts.
> If anything this kind of arbitrary banning could end up hurting
> freedom by encouraging people trying Fedora to instead either just go
> back to an entirely proprietary system, or go with another
> distribution that doesn't care about freedom as much.
That's a very limited, short-term view.
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10-02-2010, 02:46 PM
Colin Walters
F14: what to do about pino / twitter
On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 8:51 PM, Jon Stanley <jonstanley@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> When you think longer term, about what's good for Fedora, it becomes
> clear that restricting users to interact solely with free services
People - stop reading what I didn't write. I said *installed by
default*, nothing more. There's a world of difference.
The point is to get Fedora out of the business of implicitly endorsing
these services. If you install a twitter/facebook/whatever app, it's
*your* call, not Fedora's.
Again - let me make this super big and bold:
* REMOVING ANYTHING FROM THE REPOSITORIES IS NOT UNDER DISCUSSION HERE
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10-04-2010, 03:13 PM
"Paul W. Frields"
F14: what to do about pino / twitter
On Fri, Oct 01, 2010 at 11:48:07PM -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> On Fri, 2010-10-01 at 16:44 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> > On Fri, Oct 01, 2010 at 01:19:52PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > > On Fri, 2010-10-01 at 16:07 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> > >
> > > > > Yeah, if we want to ship one, gwibber is pretty much the only option,
> > > > > since it's most likely too late to fix pino before F14 is released. The
> > > > > big cons about gwibber, in my opinion is the fairly poor performance
> > > > > I've experienced with it (tho I last used it about 2 months ago) and the
> > > > > number of dependencies it would pull into the livecd.
> > > >
> > > > Doesn't post-Beta seem too late to do this? Better to have people
> > > > simply use their browser I'd think.
> > >
> > > well, we have to make *some* kind of post-beta change here, since as I
> > > said the current situation blocks the release. I don't think subbing in
> > > gwibber for pino is a particularly scary change, all we'd have to check
> > > is if it goes over the size limit, and if it works, which is about half
> > > an hour of effort.
> >
> > Right, the uncertainty I have is really around the functionality of
> > the new suggested default client, as opposed to "let's not do
> > anything." My preference would be a simple removal of pino for no
> > other reason than least disturbance of the Force.
>
> I agree that removing pino, together with a suitable note in the release
> notes, is the safest route at this point.
Adding the docs@ list to the cc so that they are aware of the need for
a release note for this. Docs folks, feel free to ask questions here
on desktop@ as needed to figure out the best text.
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10-04-2010, 10:59 PM
"Eric "Sparks" Christensen"
F14: what to do about pino / twitter
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On 10/04/2010 11:13 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 01, 2010 at 11:48:07PM -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
>> On Fri, 2010-10-01 at 16:44 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>>> On Fri, Oct 01, 2010 at 01:19:52PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 2010-10-01 at 16:07 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Yeah, if we want to ship one, gwibber is pretty much the only option,
>>>>>> since it's most likely too late to fix pino before F14 is released. The
>>>>>> big cons about gwibber, in my opinion is the fairly poor performance
>>>>>> I've experienced with it (tho I last used it about 2 months ago) and the
>>>>>> number of dependencies it would pull into the livecd.
>>>>>
>>>>> Doesn't post-Beta seem too late to do this? Better to have people
>>>>> simply use their browser I'd think.
>>>>
>>>> well, we have to make *some* kind of post-beta change here, since as I
>>>> said the current situation blocks the release. I don't think subbing in
>>>> gwibber for pino is a particularly scary change, all we'd have to check
>>>> is if it goes over the size limit, and if it works, which is about half
>>>> an hour of effort.
>>>
>>> Right, the uncertainty I have is really around the functionality of
>>> the new suggested default client, as opposed to "let's not do
>>> anything." My preference would be a simple removal of pino for no
>>> other reason than least disturbance of the Force.
>>
>> I agree that removing pino, together with a suitable note in the release
>> notes, is the safest route at this point.
>
> Adding the docs@ list to the cc so that they are aware of the need for
> a release note for this. Docs folks, feel free to ask questions here
> on desktop@ as needed to figure out the best text.
>
So pino needs to be removed and replaced by Gwibber in the Release
Notes? It will be tight but I think that change can be made. I'd
appreciate someone to come with the text that needs to be used for this
replacement.
- --Eric
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
On Mon, Oct 04, 2010 at 11:26:26AM -0400, Eric "Sparks" Christensen wrote:
> On 10/04/2010 11:13 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> > On Fri, Oct 01, 2010 at 11:48:07PM -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> >> On Fri, 2010-10-01 at 16:44 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> >>> On Fri, Oct 01, 2010 at 01:19:52PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> >>>> On Fri, 2010-10-01 at 16:07 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Yeah, if we want to ship one, gwibber is pretty much the only option,
> >>>>>> since it's most likely too late to fix pino before F14 is released. The
> >>>>>> big cons about gwibber, in my opinion is the fairly poor performance
> >>>>>> I've experienced with it (tho I last used it about 2 months ago) and the
> >>>>>> number of dependencies it would pull into the livecd.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Doesn't post-Beta seem too late to do this? Better to have people
> >>>>> simply use their browser I'd think.
> >>>>
> >>>> well, we have to make *some* kind of post-beta change here, since as I
> >>>> said the current situation blocks the release. I don't think subbing in
> >>>> gwibber for pino is a particularly scary change, all we'd have to check
> >>>> is if it goes over the size limit, and if it works, which is about half
> >>>> an hour of effort.
> >>>
> >>> Right, the uncertainty I have is really around the functionality of
> >>> the new suggested default client, as opposed to "let's not do
> >>> anything." My preference would be a simple removal of pino for no
> >>> other reason than least disturbance of the Force.
> >>
> >> I agree that removing pino, together with a suitable note in the release
> >> notes, is the safest route at this point.
> >
> > Adding the docs@ list to the cc so that they are aware of the need for
> > a release note for this. Docs folks, feel free to ask questions here
> > on desktop@ as needed to figure out the best text.
> >
>
> So pino needs to be removed and replaced by Gwibber in the Release
> Notes? It will be tight but I think that change can be made. I'd
> appreciate someone to come with the text that needs to be used for this
> replacement.
What is the final decision on this, so Docs can note the change? Pino
will be removed, but will Gwibber be replacing it or not?
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10-05-2010, 01:20 PM
Brian Pepple
F14: what to do about pino / twitter
On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 09:02 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> What is the final decision on this, so Docs can note the change? Pino
> will be removed, but will Gwibber be replacing it or not?
It seemed to me that there was more of a consensus to remove Pino, and
put something in the release notes explaining why it was removed
(similar to what Colin suggested earlier in the thread):
--
An application installed by default in Fedora 13, "pino" was removed
because the site no longer allows access.
For more information, see:
http://arstechnica.com/security/guides/2010/09/twitter-a-case-study-on-how-to-do-oauth-wrong.ars
As a replacement, you can access previously supported sites
(identi.ca, Twitter, etc.) via their respective web sites, or by
installing one of several replacement applications such as "gwibber".
--
Later,
/B
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Brian Pepple <bpepple@fedoraproject.org>
On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 09:02 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>
> What is the final decision on this, so Docs can note the change? Pino
> will be removed, but will Gwibber be replacing it or not?
I have just committed a change to comps to make pino optional in the
graphical-internet group, which should remove it from live media.
I haven't investigated gwibber as a replacement.
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10-05-2010, 07:32 PM
Dagan McGregor
F14: what to do about pino / twitter
On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 12:03 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 09:02 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
>
> >
> > What is the final decision on this, so Docs can note the change? Pino
> > will be removed, but will Gwibber be replacing it or not?
>
> I have just committed a change to comps to make pino optional in the
> graphical-internet group, which should remove it from live media.
>
> I haven't investigated gwibber as a replacement.
I notice the main complaint about Gwibber is the deplist it pulls in
when installing it.
Current version 2.33 of Gwibber is a lot lighter on dependencies, and
supports OAuth for working with Twitter. Also works well with identi.ca,
as I use it to read/post to both.
gwibber-2.33.0-7.867bzr.fc13.noarch
A quick and unscientific 'yum deplist gwibber' gives this list (edited
somewhat for readability):
The main noticeable difference, there are no couch or erlang
dependencies.
It may still not fit on a livecd image, but Gwibber has definitely
improved a lot with the work to support SQLite instead of the earlier
couchdb backend.
And the great work of the maintainer to get the updates into the repo
for us to use.
It also appears as 'Gwibber-Fedora' on Twitter, when making a post -
which is a nice little touch.
Having used Pino when F13 was released, and seeing the updates to
Gwibber, I can't see any reason why one wouldn't swap to Gwibber
(current UI is much better), but I don't see a problem with there being
no default application installed.
Just my few cents worth as a happy Gwibber user, and lurker on this
list.
Cheers,
Dagan
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F14: what to do about pino / twitter
