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Old 08-19-2010, 08:20 PM
"Jˇhann B. Gu­mundsson"
 
Default Speed up user login into desktop.

Given that users will experiences some what faster boot with systemd
are there any plans to try to speed up the actual user login time as in
from GDM to end user desktop?

What's the best method to measure what's taking most of that time?

JBG
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Old 08-19-2010, 10:00 PM
Bastien Nocera
 
Default Speed up user login into desktop.

On Thu, 2010-08-19 at 20:20 +0000, "Jˇhann B. Gu­mundsson" wrote:
> Given that users will experiences some what faster boot with systemd
> are there any plans to try to speed up the actual user login time as in
> from GDM to end user desktop?
>
> What's the best method to measure what's taking most of that time?

The work being done on removing external libraries, and things like
dconf should already provide quite a bit of speed-up (in F15), but I
don't think anyone has done any work on particular parts of the desktop
with that intent in a couple of years.

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Old 08-19-2010, 10:05 PM
Lennart Poettering
 
Default Speed up user login into desktop.

On Thu, 19.08.10 20:20, "Jˇhann B. Gu­mundsson" (johannbg@gmail.com) wrote:

> Given that users will experiences some what faster boot with systemd
> are there any plans to try to speed up the actual user login time as in
> from GDM to end user desktop?

Well, with some newer systemd features (that we'll probably enable for
fedora in f15 [1]) we are currently measuring bootups of < 7s (and a pid <
500) from grub to panel showing up on the screen. (that's kay's X300
with ssd on a modified opensuse), 5s or so are actually spent in gnome
of those. there's definitely room to improve things in gnome. some
things we are starting are kinda obvious candidates to make faster. Not
going to name names here, but some things show up kinda badly in
bootchart, and we are talking to the folks maintaining that to figure
out what can be improved here.

In the long run I want to make gnome use systemd for session management,
so that the same parallelization techniques we use for system boot can
be used for session startup as well. We aren't there yet though and we
need to figure a few things out before we go there. That's material for
f15/f16.

> What's the best method to measure what's taking most of that time?

bootchart.

Lennart

Footnotes:

[1] We wrote C replacements for all remaining shell scripts in the boot
and in shutdown, with the exception of LVM, DM, iSCSI and NFS stuff,
which are shell orgies. But then again, neither of these features really
matter for laptops where fast booting is most important. The mount/fsck
stuff in C is not entirely complete yet, but we are working to get the
necessary work done in util-linux-ng. Note that all of this will show up
in f15 only.

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Old 08-19-2010, 10:32 PM
"Jˇhann B. Gu­mundsson"
 
Default Speed up user login into desktop.

On 08/19/2010 10:05 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> In the long run I want to make gnome use systemd for session management,
> so that the same parallelization techniques we use for system boot can
> be used for session startup as well.

Are other *DE ( KDE XFCE LXDE Sugar etc ) being kept in the loop so they
can take advantage of the parallelization techniques ?

What are the plans regarding plymouth since the boot will be so fast?
( Feels kinda pointless having any kind of animation during startup )

JBG
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Old 08-19-2010, 10:53 PM
Martin Sourada
 
Default Speed up user login into desktop.

On Thu, 2010-08-19 at 22:32 +0000, "Jˇhann B. Gu­mundsson" wrote:
> On 08/19/2010 10:05 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > In the long run I want to make gnome use systemd for session management,
> > so that the same parallelization techniques we use for system boot can
> > be used for session startup as well.
>
> Are other *DE ( KDE XFCE LXDE Sugar etc ) being kept in the loop so they
> can take advantage of the parallelization techniques ?
>
> What are the plans regarding plymouth since the boot will be so fast?
> ( Feels kinda pointless having any kind of animation during startup )
>
Hey, that it takes to boot 2s on ssd disks does not mean there aren't
people using a bit older hardware that won't boot under tens of seconds
even with systemd...

Martin

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Old 08-20-2010, 01:52 AM
Lennart Poettering
 
Default Speed up user login into desktop.

On Thu, 19.08.10 22:32, "Jˇhann B. Gu­mundsson" (johannbg@gmail.com) wrote:

>
> On 08/19/2010 10:05 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > In the long run I want to make gnome use systemd for session management,
> > so that the same parallelization techniques we use for system boot can
> > be used for session startup as well.
>
> Are other *DE ( KDE XFCE LXDE Sugar etc ) being kept in the loop so they
> can take advantage of the parallelization techniques ?

Well, I consider myself a GNOME developer, and that's my focus.

systemd is very generic low-level code, so there shouldn't be a
technical barrier for other DEs adopting it too, and I'd welcome this
very much. However, there are certain political issues that will make
adoption by other DEs difficult: for one, systemd is Linux
specific. While in the GNOME world the idea that Linux is the only OS
that matters is kinda popular these days I assume that other
DEs care much more about niche OSes (hey, and KDE even cares about
Windows!).

Also, regardless of the DE there is still that distro with the 3 Us in
its name which is unlikely to adopt systemd. Tying systemd into GNOME
and the other DEs would probably cement what they are already doing:
forking GNOME and maintaining things independently of upstream.

So, in summary, this is something to push forward very carefully, and as
of now neither the technical nor the political preconditions have been
figured out how to do this best.

> What are the plans regarding plymouth since the boot will be so fast?
> ( Feels kinda pointless having any kind of animation during startup )

Well, if people plug more stuff into their boot, run all kinds of inet
servers, and other stuff, or have slower hw/rotating media, or have a
crypto fs plymouth will very much be needed.

Lennart

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Old 08-20-2010, 01:46 PM
Lennart Poettering
 
Default Speed up user login into desktop.

On Fri, 20.08.10 03:52, Lennart Poettering (mzerqung@0pointer.de) wrote:

> systemd is very generic low-level code, so there shouldn't be a
> technical barrier for other DEs adopting it too, and I'd welcome this
> very much. However, there are certain political issues that will make
> adoption by other DEs difficult: for one, systemd is Linux
> specific. While in the GNOME world the idea that Linux is the only OS
> that matters is kinda popular these days I assume that other
> DEs care much more about niche OSes (hey, and KDE even cares about
> Windows!).
>
> Also, regardless of the DE there is still that distro with the 3 Us in
> its name which is unlikely to adopt systemd. Tying systemd into GNOME
> and the other DEs would probably cement what they are already doing:
> forking GNOME and maintaining things independently of upstream.
>
> So, in summary, this is something to push forward very carefully, and as
> of now neither the technical nor the political preconditions have been
> figured out how to do this best.

Let me clarify this: if we adopt systemd for the session we need to do
that in a way that is acceptable for the other OSes/distros which cannot
or don't want to adopt systemd. We don't want to drive them away from
contributing to GNOME upstream. It's a tightrope walk between innovating
here and not breaking too much glass in the cooperation between th major
players in GNOME land.

I do have a few ideas how to do this best, but this needs more
thinking. i.e. in the long run we probably want to merge a lot of the CK
functionality into systemd, and move some stuff currently done in
gnome-session into it. We should do this in a way that Solaris and
Ubuntu can still continue to use the current CK implementation and the
current code in g-s, and both can still be considered GNOME.

But anyway, I don't like to talk too much about great plans for the
distant future, and focus more on what we can do right now.

Lennart

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Old 08-20-2010, 04:24 PM
Adam Williamson
 
Default Speed up user login into desktop.

On Fri, 2010-08-20 at 00:05 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> [1] We wrote C replacements for all remaining shell scripts in the
> boot
> and in shutdown, with the exception of LVM, DM, iSCSI and NFS stuff,
> which are shell orgies. But then again, neither of these features
> really
> matter for laptops where fast booting is most important

Fedora uses LVMs by default, so anyone who installs Fedora on a laptop
and doesn't customize the partition scheme will have them.
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IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net

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Old 08-21-2010, 06:30 AM
drago01
 
Default Speed up user login into desktop.

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 6:24 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam@redhat.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 2010-08-20 at 00:05 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>> [1] We wrote C replacements for all remaining shell scripts in the
>> boot
>> and in shutdown, with the exception of LVM, DM, iSCSI and NFS stuff,
>> which are shell orgies. But then again, neither of these features
>> really
>> matter for laptops where fast booting is most important
>
> Fedora uses LVMs by default, so anyone who installs Fedora on a laptop
> and doesn't customize the partition scheme will have them.

We should stop doing that, LVM is mostly useless on desktop and pretty
much always useless on laptops.
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Old 08-21-2010, 03:28 PM
Rares Aioanei
 
Default Speed up user login into desktop.

On 08/21/2010 09:30 AM, drago01 wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 6:24 PM, Adam Williamson<awilliam@redhat.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 2010-08-20 at 00:05 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>>
>>> [1] We wrote C replacements for all remaining shell scripts in the
>>> boot
>>> and in shutdown, with the exception of LVM, DM, iSCSI and NFS stuff,
>>> which are shell orgies. But then again, neither of these features
>>> really
>>> matter for laptops where fast booting is most important
>>>
>> Fedora uses LVMs by default, so anyone who installs Fedora on a laptop
>> and doesn't customize the partition scheme will have them.
>>
> We should stop doing that, LVM is mostly useless on desktop and pretty
> much always useless on laptops.
>
I so agree, also the possibility of customizing the partitioning scheme
in text-mode (eg with systems with <= 512 MB RAM) sounds to me like a
great idea. I run systems at work with Fedora 13 on 256 MB RAM with LXDE
and it works great. But I don't need LVM on those systems. My 0.02.
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