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Old 08-21-2010, 06:10 PM
Lennart Poettering
 
Default Speed up user login into desktop.

On Fri, 20.08.10 09:24, Adam Williamson (awilliam@redhat.com) wrote:

> On Fri, 2010-08-20 at 00:05 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > [1] We wrote C replacements for all remaining shell scripts in the
> > boot
> > and in shutdown, with the exception of LVM, DM, iSCSI and NFS stuff,
> > which are shell orgies. But then again, neither of these features
> > really
> > matter for laptops where fast booting is most important
>
> Fedora uses LVMs by default, so anyone who installs Fedora on a laptop
> and doesn't customize the partition scheme will have them.

Well, I believe Fedora should not do this by default. This just adds
complexity, makes boot slower, and offers exactly zero advantages for
laptop/desktop users. Also, sooner or later LVM will be obsoleted anyway
by btrfs which integrates most of the LVM features into the fs
itself. And in contrast to LVM the btrfs userspace is kinda nice.

Lennart

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Old 08-21-2010, 09:02 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Speed up user login into desktop.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 8/21/10 11:10 AM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Fri, 20.08.10 09:24, Adam Williamson (awilliam@redhat.com) wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 2010-08-20 at 00:05 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>>> [1] We wrote C replacements for all remaining shell scripts in the
>>> boot
>>> and in shutdown, with the exception of LVM, DM, iSCSI and NFS stuff,
>>> which are shell orgies. But then again, neither of these features
>>> really
>>> matter for laptops where fast booting is most important
>>
>> Fedora uses LVMs by default, so anyone who installs Fedora on a laptop
>> and doesn't customize the partition scheme will have them.
>
> Well, I believe Fedora should not do this by default. This just adds
> complexity, makes boot slower, and offers exactly zero advantages for
> laptop/desktop users. Also, sooner or later LVM will be obsoleted anyway
> by btrfs which integrates most of the LVM features into the fs
> itself. And in contrast to LVM the btrfs userspace is kinda nice.
>
> Lennart
>

I've got no issues with not doing LVM by default here...

- --
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom▓ is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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Old 08-23-2010, 06:28 AM
"Jˇhann B. Gu­mundsson"
 
Default Speed up user login into desktop.

On 08/21/2010 09:02 PM, Jesse Keating wrote:
>> Well, I believe Fedora should not do this by default. This just adds
>> > complexity, makes boot slower, and offers exactly zero advantages for
>> > laptop/desktop users. Also, sooner or later LVM will be obsoleted anyway
>> > by btrfs which integrates most of the LVM features into the fs
>> > itself. And in contrast to LVM the btrfs userspace is kinda nice.
>> >
> I've got no issues with not doing LVM by default here...

Is this then just a matter of go ahead and make the change?

JBG
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Old 08-23-2010, 07:11 AM
"pbrobinson@gmail.com"
 
Default Speed up user login into desktop.

On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 10:02 PM, Jesse Keating
<jkeating@j2solutions.net> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 8/21/10 11:10 AM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>> On Fri, 20.08.10 09:24, Adam Williamson (awilliam@redhat.com) wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 2010-08-20 at 00:05 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
>>>> [1] We wrote C replacements for all remaining shell scripts in the
>>>> boot
>>>> and in shutdown, with the exception of LVM, DM, iSCSI and NFS stuff,
>>>> which are shell orgies. But then again, neither of these features
>>>> really
>>>> matter for laptops where fast booting is most important
>>>
>>> Fedora uses LVMs by default, so anyone who installs Fedora on a laptop
>>> and doesn't customize the partition scheme will have them.
>>
>> Well, I believe Fedora should not do this by default. This just adds
>> complexity, makes boot slower, and offers exactly zero advantages for
>> laptop/desktop users. Also, sooner or later LVM will be obsoleted anyway
>> by btrfs which integrates most of the LVM features into the fs
>> itself. And in contrast to LVM the btrfs userspace is kinda nice.
>>
>> Lennart
>>
>
> I've got no issues with not doing LVM by default here...

I think its needed for LUKS (unfortunately) but I would like to see it
non used for the other use cases.

Peter
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Old 08-23-2010, 02:11 PM
Matthias Clasen
 
Default Speed up user login into desktop.

On Mon, 2010-08-23 at 06:28 +0000, "Jˇhann B. Gu­mundsson" wrote:
> On 08/21/2010 09:02 PM, Jesse Keating wrote:
> >> Well, I believe Fedora should not do this by default. This just adds
> >> > complexity, makes boot slower, and offers exactly zero advantages for
> >> > laptop/desktop users. Also, sooner or later LVM will be obsoleted anyway
> >> > by btrfs which integrates most of the LVM features into the fs
> >> > itself. And in contrast to LVM the btrfs userspace is kinda nice.
> >> >
> > I've got no issues with not doing LVM by default here...
>
> Is this then just a matter of go ahead and make the change?
>
> JBG

Here is an older effort to do the same:

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NoDefaultLVM


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Old 08-23-2010, 02:46 PM
David Zeuthen
 
Default Speed up user login into desktop.

On Mon, 2010-08-23 at 08:11 +0100, pbrobinson@gmail.com wrote:
> > I've got no issues with not doing LVM by default here...
>
> I think its needed for LUKS (unfortunately) but I would like to see it
> non used for the other use cases.

LUKS works just fine without LVM (LUKS itself uses device-mapper too but
that's not the same).

David


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Old 08-23-2010, 03:13 PM
Lennart Poettering
 
Default Speed up user login into desktop.

On Mon, 23.08.10 06:28, "Jˇhann B. Gu­mundsson" (johannbg@gmail.com) wrote:

>
> On 08/21/2010 09:02 PM, Jesse Keating wrote:
> >> Well, I believe Fedora should not do this by default. This just adds
> >> > complexity, makes boot slower, and offers exactly zero advantages for
> >> > laptop/desktop users. Also, sooner or later LVM will be obsoleted anyway
> >> > by btrfs which integrates most of the LVM features into the fs
> >> > itself. And in contrast to LVM the btrfs userspace is kinda nice.
> >> >
> > I've got no issues with not doing LVM by default here...
>
> Is this then just a matter of go ahead and make the change?

I think many people would welcome if this step was done, but this
is probably something to discuss with the anaconda people directly? I am
pretty sure tehy won't read our little desktop ML. :-(

Lennart

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Old 08-23-2010, 03:23 PM
"Jˇhann B. Gu­mundsson"
 
Default Speed up user login into desktop.

On 08/23/2010 03:13 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> I think many people would welcome if this step was done, but this
> is probably something to discuss with the anaconda people directly? I am
> pretty sure tehy won't read our little desktop ML.:-(

Well this is something that the desktop SIG needs to reach conscious
about + Will was just informing me about the slight problem of the
livecd being an lvm snapshot :| so there are some technical hurdle
involved making the actual change.

JBG
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Old 08-23-2010, 04:20 PM
Lennart Poettering
 
Default Speed up user login into desktop.

On Mon, 23.08.10 15:23, "Jˇhann B. Gu­mundsson" (johannbg@gmail.com) wrote:

>
> On 08/23/2010 03:13 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > I think many people would welcome if this step was done, but this
> > is probably something to discuss with the anaconda people directly? I am
> > pretty sure tehy won't read our little desktop ML.:-(
>
> Well this is something that the desktop SIG needs to reach conscious
> about + Will was just informing me about the slight problem of the
> livecd being an lvm snapshot :| so there are some technical hurdle
> involved making the actual change.

Urks, LVM snapshots!

That said, I am pretty sure you have the consensus of the desktop group
now, as nobody defended LVM.

Lennart

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Old 08-23-2010, 04:24 PM
Behdad Esfahbod
 
Default Speed up user login into desktop.

On 08/23/10 12:20, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> Urks, LVM snapshots!
>
> That said, I am pretty sure you have the consensus of the desktop group
> now, as nobody defended LVM.

I agree that on laptops LVM is not all that useful. But on desktops it is as
it allows easy resizing and reallocation.

What I personally want to see our default auto-partitioning do is to create a
separate '/' from /home, such that reinstallations don't wipe out /home.

behdad

> Lennart
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