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Old 05-18-2010, 11:51 PM
Matthias Clasen
 
Default Initial thoughts about F14 / GNOME3

This Fedora cycle will see more drastic changes in the GNOME stack than
usual, with GNOME3 getting rolled out. We should start early to think
about how to best organize this transition in Fedora. Here are some
unsorted thoughts on this:

1) GConf is getting phased out in favor of GSettings+DConf [1].
GSettings has already landed in rawhide, as part of GLib 2.25.x. For a
first example of an application that has been ported from GConf to
GSettings, look at evince in rawhide.

GSettings relies on backends for actual data storage. The only non-toy
backend that is available in rawhide right now is the GConf backend that
is included in GConf 2.31. It is only meant as a transition help (it
allows to switch applications to the GSettings API without migrating the
user data to another storage). Any day now, dconf will be available as
the main settings backend that will replace GConf.

Making applications use dconf as the settings backend requires migration
of existing user data. GConf comes with a tool that is intended to help
with this, gsettings-data-convert(1). I plan to try this out with evince
or another early-adopter application as soon as dconf is available, and
then write some more detailed instructions on how to best deal with this
on the packaging level.

I expect that we will have a mixture of GConf- and GSettings-using
applications in F14.

2) GTK+ gets a major new version, GTK3. Packages are currently under
review [2]. GTK3 will be fully parallel-installable with gtk2, and
applications can be ported at their own speed.

>From a packaging perspective, the most important consequence of this is
that packages that provides modules for GTK+ (such as image loaders,
theme engines, input methods) need to provide them for both gtk2 and
gtk3. As soon as the gtk3 package is in rawhide, I'll try this out for a
simple example like librsvg2.

Some of the notable features in GTK3 that applications may want to make
use of are support for symbolic icons and dark themes. Theme packagers
may want to look into providing dark variants for the themes they
package. At least we should make sure that our default theme has such a
variant.

Here too, it is clear that F14 will still include plenty of gtk2-using
applications.

3) gnome-shell will be the designated user experience. For practical
reasons, the 'classical GNOME2' experience with gnome-panel+metacity
will still be available, and we need a reasonable way to fall back to
the GNOME2 experience if the shell does not work for some reason.

I expect this to be worked out between the shell team and the
gnome-session/gdm maintainers, but it is something to keep an eye on.

It would also be good to start a discussion on the if/when/how of
switching to the shell as the default user experience (on supported
hardware).


Matthias


[1]http://mail.gnome.org/archives/devel-announce-list/2010-April/msg00000.html
[2]https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=591222

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Old 05-19-2010, 07:55 AM
Caolán McNamara
 
Default Initial thoughts about F14 / GNOME3

On Tue, 2010-05-18 at 19:51 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> 3) gnome-shell will be the designated user experience.
...
> It would also be good to start a discussion on the if/when/how of
> switching to the shell as the default user experience (on supported
> hardware).

Are these the drivers we currently have that we expect should be able to
run gnome-shell reasonably ?

xorg-x11-drv-ati
xorg-x11-drv-intel
xorg-x11-drv-nouveau

C.

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Old 05-19-2010, 08:01 AM
Peter Robinson
 
Default Initial thoughts about F14 / GNOME3

On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Caolán McNamara <caolanm@redhat.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-05-18 at 19:51 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
>> 3) gnome-shell will be the designated user experience.
> ...
>> It would also be good to start a discussion on the if/when/how of
>> switching to the shell as the default user experience (on supported
>> hardware).
>
> Are these the drivers we currently have that we expect should be able to
> run gnome-shell reasonably ?
>
> xorg-x11-drv-ati
> xorg-x11-drv-intel
> xorg-x11-drv-nouveau

And how is the fall back handled for all the other drivers that don't
support decent speeds for 3D.

Peter
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Old 05-19-2010, 09:37 AM
Monty Montgomery
 
Default Initial thoughts about F14 / GNOME3

> xorg-x11-drv-nouveau

In my own personal testing, Nouveau is not yet able to handle gnome
shell. The screen output is mildly color garbled. Aside from the
color garbling, though, it works well ;-)

Monty
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Old 05-19-2010, 02:21 PM
Adam Jackson
 
Default Initial thoughts about F14 / GNOME3

On Wed, 2010-05-19 at 08:55 +0100, Caolán McNamara wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-05-18 at 19:51 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> > 3) gnome-shell will be the designated user experience.
> ...
> > It would also be good to start a discussion on the if/when/how of
> > switching to the shell as the default user experience (on supported
> > hardware).
>
> Are these the drivers we currently have that we expect should be able to
> run gnome-shell reasonably ?
>
> xorg-x11-drv-ati
> xorg-x11-drv-intel
> xorg-x11-drv-nouveau

It's a little more fine-grained than that, but broadly yes. nouveau is
probably lagging the most at the moment, but I expect gnome-shell
support to be a primary feature-completeness target for 3D drivers from
this point out. Sort of the way quake3 was in 1999.

There does exist other hardware where we could have a better 3D story
and nobody's put in the legwork yet. Newer VIA kit is probably the most
obvious example. If there's interest I can try to put together a list
of desiderata for what a driver needs to support to be considered
shell-worthy.

- ajax
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Old 05-20-2010, 12:58 AM
Matthias Clasen
 
Default Initial thoughts about F14 / GNOME3

On Wed, 2010-05-19 at 10:21 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-05-19 at 08:55 +0100, Caolán McNamara wrote:
> > On Tue, 2010-05-18 at 19:51 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> > > 3) gnome-shell will be the designated user experience.
> > ...
> > > It would also be good to start a discussion on the if/when/how of
> > > switching to the shell as the default user experience (on supported
> > > hardware).
> >
> > Are these the drivers we currently have that we expect should be able to
> > run gnome-shell reasonably ?
> >
> > xorg-x11-drv-ati
> > xorg-x11-drv-intel
> > xorg-x11-drv-nouveau
>
> It's a little more fine-grained than that, but broadly yes. nouveau is
> probably lagging the most at the moment, but I expect gnome-shell
> support to be a primary feature-completeness target for 3D drivers from
> this point out. Sort of the way quake3 was in 1999.
>
> There does exist other hardware where we could have a better 3D story
> and nobody's put in the legwork yet. [...]

Of course, the big one missing here is virt.

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Old 05-20-2010, 01:07 AM
Adam Williamson
 
Default Initial thoughts about F14 / GNOME3

On Wed, 2010-05-19 at 09:01 +0100, Peter Robinson wrote:
> On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 8:55 AM, Caolán McNamara <caolanm@redhat.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, 2010-05-18 at 19:51 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> >> 3) gnome-shell will be the designated user experience.
> > ...
> >> It would also be good to start a discussion on the if/when/how of
> >> switching to the shell as the default user experience (on supported
> >> hardware).
> >
> > Are these the drivers we currently have that we expect should be able to
> > run gnome-shell reasonably ?
> >
> > xorg-x11-drv-ati
> > xorg-x11-drv-intel
> > xorg-x11-drv-nouveau
>
> And how is the fall back handled for all the other drivers that don't
> support decent speeds for 3D.

As others have noted, the list is broadly accurate, but nouveau is still
somewhat dicey at present; it'll work on many adapters, but not all.

For fallback, this may be interesting reading:

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=gallium3d_llvmpipe&num= 1

(that's likely what'll get used in virt, too, I guess).
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IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net

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Old 05-20-2010, 04:24 AM
Matthias Clasen
 
Default Initial thoughts about F14 / GNOME3

I have put some of these things on a feature page now:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Gnome3


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Old 05-20-2010, 02:14 PM
"Jóhann B. Guðmundsson"
 
Default Initial thoughts about F14 / GNOME3

On 05/18/2010 11:51 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> It would also be good to start a discussion on the if/when/how of
> switching to the shell as the default user experience (on supported
> hardware).
>

Is it not best to switch to it as soon as possible to expose it to as
much testing as possible during the release cycle?

JBG
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Old 05-20-2010, 02:37 PM
Colin Walters
 
Default Initial thoughts about F14 / GNOME3

On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 9:07 PM, Adam Williamson <awilliam@redhat.com> wrote:
>
> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=gallium3d_llvmpipe&num= 1
>
> (that's likely what'll get used in virt, too, I guess).

For virt what we really want is passthrough GL, like other systems
have. Broadly speaking if you have KVM support (on a workstation)
you're going to have a modern graphics card too.
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