FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
» Video Reviews

» Linux Archive

Linux-archive is a website aiming to archive linux email lists and to make them easily accessible for linux users/developers.


» Sponsor

» Partners

» Sponsor

Go Back   Linux Archive > Redhat > Fedora Desktop

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 04-29-2010, 06:04 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default Droid Sans

Hi folks,

On Wed, 2010-04-28 at 17:02 -0400, William Jon McCann wrote:
> Firstly, I should have been more clear that I would like to see Droid
> Sans be considered for the default UI font - not document font.
>
> I am not a typography expert. For my part, I think Droid looks a lot
> better and it was designed from the start to be a UI font, where
> DejaVu was not.
> My designer colleagues in Fedora and GNOME are much more knowledgeable
> about this and I've asked them to chime in with some details.

I just wanted to chime in, although note my typographic background is
limited to a half-semester typography course, multiple failed attempts
at font design, and reading Ellen Lupton books, so your mileage may
vary. That being said:

I've always thought of DejaVu / Bitstream Vera as a slightly uglier
clone of MS Verdana. Vera / Verdana - the names are similar. As to
ugliness/awkwardness, see [1]. (they use Verdana - but open it
up in Inkscape and type over to compare the two )

It appears to be fairly equivalent to Verdana for better viewing of
webpages designed for verdana (a fairly ubiquitous font). They are both
specifically designed for screen viewing - however Verdana was designed
in the early-to-mid-90's (I'm guessing Vera was too) when the average
screen resolution was probably 800x600 at best (today it's a pretty
reasonable guess your worst resolution is 1024x600 on a netbook.)

Droid Sans has a lot more personality than those two - to me it is a lot
friendlier & less stiff. The letterforms are very humanist
(human-hand/calligraphy-inspired.) It's a humanist sans-serif like Gill
Sans - which I think gives it a warmer feel - little calligraphic
touches like the g's bowled descender and the curved & tapered serifs &
finials on the letters. Deja Vu is a colder font - like a Helvetica /
transitional sans-serif - it is rather anonymous/neutral-looking and has
far less line-width variation. Where Droid Sans has tapering and curves,
Deja Vu has hard angles and straight-cuts.

It might be worth starting a thread on typophile.

~m


[1] http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/Screenshot2.png

--
desktop mailing list
desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
 
Old 04-29-2010, 07:56 PM
Behdad Esfahbod
 
Default Droid Sans

On 04/29/2010 01:41 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote:

> So, that leaves us with finding a brave fontconfig
> hacker to get the Japanse<>Droid issue under control, then we have the
> major technical issues solved.

I'm waiting for Nicolas to speak up. I thought I fixed the Japanese dekstop
issue, or at least proposed a solution last time he brought it up with me.

behdad
--
desktop mailing list
desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
 
Old 04-30-2010, 01:20 PM
Owen Taylor
 
Default Droid Sans

On Thu, 2010-04-29 at 13:58 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> Matthias Clasen (mclasen@redhat.com) said:
> > That still leaves the question if we want to do this switch like any
> > other UI tweak, or tie it to the coming major UX change, the shell.
> > Peoplea are very sensitive to font changes, so it might be easier to
> > swallow it if comes coupled with an entirely new UX...
>
> Also note that the shell (in my brief testing) completely ignores
> the gnome2 default fonts settings. I'm guessing that's intentional, and
> would have to be fixed by swapping the priority to make Droid the default
> 'sans' match in fontconfig.

No, it's not intentional - it really should be picking up the GNOME font
settings - just not implemented yet. But yes, currently you'd need to
change the fontconfig settings to see Droid in the shell.

There's one other note about Droid vs. Deja Vu Sans - which is that the
current GNOME Shell designs contain a lot of bold (including the top
panel) and Deja Vu Sans has a very BOLD bold which doesn't look good
when bolding more than a word or two. So if we stuck with Deja Vu Sans
we'd have to trim down the use of bold in the shell.

- Owen


--
desktop mailing list
desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
 
Old 04-30-2010, 05:32 PM
Bill Nottingham
 
Default Droid Sans

Bill Nottingham (notting@redhat.com) said:
> OK. I did some quick comparisons which can be seen at:
>
> http://notting.fedorapeople.org/font-tests/
>
> if people are interested.

I've been running this way for a couple of days - the only thing that
jumps out at me is that the password obsfucation character is *very*
compressed; it's so compact that it looks a little out of place to
me.

Bill

--
desktop mailing list
desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
 
Old 04-30-2010, 06:41 PM
William Jon McCann
 
Default Droid Sans

Hey,

On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Behdad Esfahbod <behdad@behdad.org> wrote:
> On 04/29/2010 01:41 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
>
>> * * * * * * * * * *So, that leaves us with finding a brave fontconfig
>> hacker to get the Japanse<>Droid issue under control, then we have the
>> major technical issues solved.
>
> I'm waiting for Nicolas to speak up. *I thought I fixed the Japanese dekstop
> issue, or at least proposed a solution last time he brought it up with me.

Apparently, he isn't on the list and is very busy with other work.
But he sent me the following message:

Concerning Droid, I think the problem with current rules is not the
rules themselves, but their ordering. I suspect that splitting the droid
fontconfig ruleset file in two (or more) with different priorities may
well fix the problem, but that needs testing and I haven't found the
time to do so right now

Of course I may be wrong and what we're trying to do with droid may just
be contrary to some assumption a bit of fontconfig code makes. But we
have not exhausted testing with current code yet.

Regards
Nicolas Mailhot
--
desktop mailing list
desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
 
Old 04-30-2010, 06:44 PM
Behdad Esfahbod
 
Default Droid Sans

On 04/30/2010 02:41 PM, William Jon McCann wrote:
> Hey,
>
> On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Behdad Esfahbod <behdad@behdad.org> wrote:
>> On 04/29/2010 01:41 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
>>
>>> So, that leaves us with finding a brave fontconfig
>>> hacker to get the Japanse<>Droid issue under control, then we have the
>>> major technical issues solved.
>>
>> I'm waiting for Nicolas to speak up. I thought I fixed the Japanese dekstop
>> issue, or at least proposed a solution last time he brought it up with me.
>
> Apparently, he isn't on the list and is very busy with other work.
> But he sent me the following message:

Can someone tell me again, how exactly does Droid break Japanese desktop?

behdad
--
desktop mailing list
desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
 
Old 04-30-2010, 08:52 PM
Bill Nottingham
 
Default Droid Sans

Bill Nottingham (notting@redhat.com) said:
> Bill Nottingham (notting@redhat.com) said:
> > OK. I did some quick comparisons which can be seen at:
> >
> > http://notting.fedorapeople.org/font-tests/
> >
> > if people are interested.
>
> I've been running this way for a couple of days - the only thing that
> jumps out at me is that the password obsfucation character is *very*
> compressed; it's so compact that it looks a little out of place to
> me.

Also, https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=587783.

Bill
--
desktop mailing list
desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
 
Old 05-05-2010, 06:41 PM
Martin Sourada
 
Default Droid Sans

Hi,

first let me say, I'm not an expert in typography either...

On Wed, 2010-04-28 at 17:16 -0400, Jeremy Perry wrote:
> Here is a quick rundown.
>
> Things I know or are my opinions as a designer:
> - Deja Vu Sans is a
> very vide font, and in many cases causes "ugly" ui because of the
> amount of space it consumes. Screen space is at a premium and this
> font makes the issue worse by being one of the widest out there. This
> is a big pain point in places like dialogs and skinny window titles. -
> Deja Vu Sans is known to be tricky to render on screen - some letters
> just have awkward spacing and widths no matter what you do (bowls on
> d's seem compressed, etc). I blogged about this as it relates to
> Fedora:
> http://blogs.fedoraproject.org/wp/jperry/2009/10/30/when-rendering-text-on-screen-every-pixel-counts/
Well, "ugly" is very subjective here (apart from cases where there are
obvious rendering glitches, etc.). Just like Times is perfect font for
newspapers, where there are usually many rather thin columns, while it's
a complete waste to use it on literature where wide fonts look much
better or nature sciences texts (where computer modern family of fonts
is clearly one of the best) --- what looks very well on PDA/mobile
phones displays (e.g. Droid) would probably not look as good on wide
screens where you clearly have "space to waste" in horizontal direction
but not in vertical.

From what I've seen, Deja Vu Sans looks best for me (my personal
opinion, probably also heavily biased by extensive and long usage of
Deja Vu Sans...), but I have to admit I have wide screen (notebook
screen 1280x800), use 9 pt height (98 dpi) and don't have all fonts
available in repos installed...

In overall, my point is that if you'd like to change default font of
fedora desktop, you should do much deeper research than just a handful
of fonts lead by Google Droid which was designed for a rather specific
use... I suppose one release cycle should be just enough time to do
research, evaluation of the proposed variants and making a final
decision. I believe folks at Fonts SIG and Design Team might be
able/willing to help.

Btw. do we have any useful data on where Fedora is used? What are the
usual screen resolutions, screen width/height ratios, DPIs, ...? It
might play some role in the decision with which font to go with.

Just my two cents,
Martin
--
desktop mailing list
desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
 
Old 05-06-2010, 09:08 AM
Jens Petersen
 
Default Droid Sans

----- "Behdad Esfahbod" <behdad@behdad.org> wrote:
> Can someone tell me again, how exactly does Droid break Japanese
> desktop?

I just tested with latest f13 - and it looks fixed to me now
thanks to all the .conf improvements we made recently to the fonts.

Current F12 also looks ok now to me from brief testing.

I added a comment to the bug and moved it to MODIFIED.

Jens
--
desktop mailing list
desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
 
Old 05-06-2010, 01:55 PM
Matthias Clasen
 
Default Droid Sans

On Fri, 2010-04-30 at 14:44 -0400, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
> On 04/30/2010 02:41 PM, William Jon McCann wrote:
> > Hey,
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Behdad Esfahbod <behdad@behdad.org> wrote:
> >> On 04/29/2010 01:41 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> >>
> >>> So, that leaves us with finding a brave fontconfig
> >>> hacker to get the Japanse<>Droid issue under control, then we have the
> >>> major technical issues solved.
> >>
> >> I'm waiting for Nicolas to speak up. I thought I fixed the Japanese dekstop
> >> issue, or at least proposed a solution last time he brought it up with me.
> >
> > Apparently, he isn't on the list and is very busy with other work.
> > But he sent me the following message:
>
> Can someone tell me again, how exactly does Droid break Japanese desktop?

Jens said in bugzilla that the problem he was seeing with Droid in F12
seems to be fixed in F13.

So, I would say that we should include Droid in F14 early on (ie now).
If the mere inclusion still causes problems in some setups, we'll hear
about it.

Does the shell have any theming mechanisms yet that allow us to make it
use Droid while staying with Dejavu for 'good old gnome' ?

--
desktop mailing list
desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 09:28 AM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright ©2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org