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Old 04-22-2010, 09:06 AM
charles zeitler
 
Default Fwd: Updates next steps

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Do what thou wilt
shall be the whole of the Law.


On 4/22/10, Rahul Sundaram <metherid@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Rahul
>
thank you for your ack.
and you have at least tried to answer one question.

but i find McCann's proposals too nebulous to allow
serious approval (if i were in the position to approve
them) first, they are based on an oxymoron:
"pointless updates" a package cannot be pointless
and be an update.

limiting non-critical updates to once weekly.

he does not specify what is meant by 'critical', how
this would help, or even how this would differ from the
current situation.

as has been pointed out, there is no "stable release"

Establish norms or rules that limit the types of changes in stable
releases to ensure the releases remain stable

maybe i can help here: bugfixes, new software, configuration, interface,
feature add/delete...

again, how "stable" can Fedora be made and not conflict with
'incubate(ing) innovative new technologies'?


charles zeitler


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Old 04-24-2010, 01:11 AM
charles zeitler
 
Default Fwd: Updates next steps

Do what thou wilt
shall be the whole of the Law.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: William Jon McCann <william.jon.mccann@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 12:02:47 -0400
Subject: Updates next steps
To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop
<desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org>

Hey folks,

We discussed this a bit on IRC yesterday but I wanted to bring it up
on the list too. (here McCann refers to the Desktop list)

Now that we have rough consensus that we should try to limit the
volume of "pointless" updates, what is next?

I propose we look at two things right away:

1. Limit the frequency of non-critical updates to once per week in
stable releases

2. Establish norms or rules that limit the types of changes in stable
releases to ensure the releases remain stable

A concrete example of the kind of thing that I think we should try to avoid:
Two days ago I installed updates for F12 (over a hundred random
updates) then yesterday I noticed a lot more udpates (40ish) that
included an update for vala 0.8.0 with the description "Update to new
major release 0.8.0".

Longer term, I'd like to see a more comprehensive plan similar to
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/Whiteboards/UpdateExperience but
we probably need to work towards that incrementally.

Thoughts? What is the best way to accomplish these two things?

Jon
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my questions and concerns:

1. we do?
2. what constitutes 'pointless'?
3. shouldn't this be on the 'users' list? does it not affect other users?
4. how is 'critical' defined?
5. what is this 'stable release' ( as opposed to 'release' )?
6. what steps would be taken to ensure that this 'stability' does not
interfere with 'incubate(ing) innovative new technologies'?
7. now we have proposal after proposal, trying to produce
a "stable release" and insisting on imposing such a level
of "stability" into Fedora's releases, that i fear the result
would seriously interfere with the original goals of this fine
distribution.


have been poorly addressed, or not at all.

instead of asking if these things _should_ be done,
(and they ultimately include, for example, limiting
updates to bugfixes and security patches) McCann
says:

" It is pretty clear that we want to make the user experience around
updates better for our users - now we need to do it. There will be
people who don't agree (at least until we demonstrate it is better by
actually doing it) but we need to do it anyway.

If possible, I'd really like to keep the discussion in this thread
related to ideation on how we can accomplish the two things I
mentioned. From that we can develop a proposal that includes the why."

where "we" means either:
"the people who are interested in designing and defining
the user experience of this desktop thing." or "the project"

i believe such ill-designed and extreme (check the subsumed
proposals)* proposals deserves your consideration.

* from Jesse Keating:
" > 2. Establish norms or rules that limit the types of changes in stable
> releases to ensure the releases remain stable
>
>

I had started on a proposal that addresses this, or at least attempts to
classify the types of updates we do, so that some rules could be layered
on top of those types.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Stable_Release_Updates_Proposal"

which page subsumes the Stable_release_updates_vision q.v.

ccharles zeitler





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Old 04-24-2010, 01:51 AM
Mail Lists
 
Default Fwd: Updates next steps

Hi:

>
> 1. Limit the frequency of non-critical updates to once per week in
> stable releases

Do not create client policy on the server side - it is way to
restrictive and wont satisfy the client needs of many.

And, not using the full bandwidth is very suboptimal. (Like a 30
minute lawn watering, where the water company limits your water to 2
minutes of water then off for 1 hour .. :-)

Any 'limiting' of updates ( to weekly or whatever frequenccy) should
be done at the client side - if you want to update weekly - go ahead -
but let me update when I choose to, be it daily, monthly or every 3.2 days.

Enhance packagekit to offer update on scheduling if it doesn't already
do that - or set it to download but not update ... or whatever makes you
happy like using cron.


>
> 2. Establish norms or rules that limit the types of changes in stable
> releases to ensure the releases remain stable

These are largely up to the maintainer and there was discussion about
improving quality, testing etc - that is a healthy focus. However again,
Fedora users broadly like the way things happen (not all but broadly -
for some the lags in some packages from upstream are way too long
already - for others the rapid updates of key packages is a huge
improvement in functionality and efficiency of human resources over
back-porting fixes (security or otehrwise).

If you are looking for the fedora equivalent of ubuntu lts - you wont
find it - the closest, would be centos or ubuntu lts ;-)

If you want to pitch for a Fedora LTS - I suspect you'll find a
lovely following - not from the desktop users - but from the server side.

However, this discussion, along with rolling releases happens now and
again ... and we are in much the same place today.


>
> Thoughts? What is the best way to accomplish these two things?

My view - dont.

You're treeing up the wrong bark ...I for one dont want to accomplish
your goals as they are undesirable.

gene


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Old 04-24-2010, 02:58 AM
Suvayu Ali
 
Default Fwd: Updates next steps

On Friday 23 April 2010 06:51 PM, Mail Lists wrote:
> Enhance packagekit to offer update on scheduling if it doesn't already
> do that - or set it to download but not update ... or whatever makes you
> happy like using cron.
>

I think PackageKit already does that.

> You're treeing up the wrong bark ...I for one dont want to accomplish
> your goals as they are undesirable.
>

Nice 1.

> gene
>

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Old 04-24-2010, 03:05 AM
Tim
 
Default Fwd: Updates next steps

On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 20:11 -0500, charles zeitler wrote:
> I propose we look at two things right away:
>
> 1. Limit the frequency of non-critical updates to once per week in
> stable releases

This was brought up, here, a few weeks back, and rightly shot down in
flames for being a bad thing.

If there's a working update for something I have, I want it straight
away. I don't want it delayed to suit some *dumb* rule.

I do my updates when I want to, and not automatically. If you want your
updates run to a schedule, then that's what *you* should be doing,
client-side.

Currently, server load will be randomly spread. But if everyone did
their updates on the first of the month, or every Sunday morning, then
the server would have a very uneven load. Perhaps one that was
overwhelming.

Microsoft has doing this delaying tactic with update releasing for
years, and has pissed off no end of people for doing so. Learn from
other people's mistakes, don't copy them.

--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686

Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.



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Old 04-24-2010, 02:50 PM
Patrick O'Callaghan
 
Default Fwd: Updates next steps

On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 20:11 -0500, charles zeitler wrote:
> Thoughts? What is the best way to accomplish these two things?

The best way is to leave it alone. Let the user decide when he wants to
update. I can't see what problem this is supposed to be the answer to.
If the Package Update thing is causing difficulties, either fix it or
just use yum (which is what I do). Don't impose this "solution" on every
Fedora user because part of the touchy-feely GUI doesn't work properly.

poc

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Old 04-24-2010, 03:23 PM
Steven Stern
 
Default Fwd: Updates next steps

Agreed. If I want updates, let me have whatever's available when I look.
However, give me the option to schedule the update check.

That is, I get to decide when and how to handle updates. You (the
maintainers and packagers) just keep pushing them into the pipeline.

On 04/23/2010 08:51 PM, Mail Lists wrote:
> Enhance packagekit to offer update on scheduling if it doesn't already
> do that - or set it to download but not update ... or whatever makes you
> happy like using cron.


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Old 04-24-2010, 04:43 PM
David
 
Default Fwd: Updates next steps

On 4/24/2010 11:23 AM, Steven Stern wrote:
> Agreed. If I want updates, let me have whatever's available when I look.
> However, give me the option to schedule the update check.
>
> That is, I get to decide when and how to handle updates. You (the
> maintainers and packagers) just keep pushing them into the pipeline.


How is this different from the way PackageKit works now?


> On 04/23/2010 08:51 PM, Mail Lists wrote:
>> Enhance packagekit to offer update on scheduling if it doesn't already
>> do that - or set it to download but not update ... or whatever makes you
>> happy like using cron.
>
>


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David

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