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Old 11-24-2009, 10:57 PM
John Poelstra
 
Default Fedora 13 Schedule

Hello Desktop People,

A few weeks ago there was discussion here about how the Fedora 12
schedule was sub-optimal. I offered to help make sure your concerns
were addressed in the Fedora 13 schedule, but nobody responded. I'm
checking in with you one last time. If there is no response by the end
of this week, I will assume that the proposed schedules meet the needs
of the desktop for the Fedora 13 release cycle.


The basic structure of Fedora 13 schedule has been set and will soon go
to FESCo for final approval. Once that happens I will build proposed
schedules for: Documentation, Translation, Design, Marketing, and Websites.


https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/13/Schedule
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13/f-13-releng-tasks.html

If you have constructive feedback for altering or enhancing the
schedule, now is the time to give it. If it would be helpful to create
a public Desktop specific schedule I'd be glad to help with that as well.


Thank you,
John

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Old 11-24-2009, 11:44 PM
Matthias Clasen
 
Default Fedora 13 Schedule

On Tue, 2009-11-24 at 15:57 -0800, John Poelstra wrote:
> Hello Desktop People,
>
> A few weeks ago there was discussion here about how the Fedora 12
> schedule was sub-optimal. I offered to help make sure your concerns
> were addressed in the Fedora 13 schedule, but nobody responded. I'm
> checking in with you one last time. If there is no response by the end
> of this week, I will assume that the proposed schedules meet the needs
> of the desktop for the Fedora 13 release cycle.
>
> The basic structure of Fedora 13 schedule has been set and will soon go
> to FESCo for final approval. Once that happens I will build proposed
> schedules for: Documentation, Translation, Design, Marketing, and Websites.
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/13/Schedule
> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13/f-13-releng-tasks.html
>
> If you have constructive feedback for altering or enhancing the
> schedule, now is the time to give it. If it would be helpful to create
> a public Desktop specific schedule I'd be glad to help with that as well.

I don't think I have much constructive feedback, other than that the
development phase seems very short, with holidays and whatnot.


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Old 11-25-2009, 12:58 PM
Mike Chambers
 
Default Fedora 13 Schedule

On Tue, 2009-11-24 at 19:44 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-11-24 at 15:57 -0800, John Poelstra wrote:
> >
> > The basic structure of Fedora 13 schedule has been set and will soon go
> > to FESCo for final approval. Once that happens I will build proposed
> > schedules for: Documentation, Translation, Design, Marketing, and Websites.
> >
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/13/Schedule
> > http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13/f-13-releng-tasks.html
> >
> > If you have constructive feedback for altering or enhancing the
> > schedule, now is the time to give it. If it would be helpful to create
> > a public Desktop specific schedule I'd be glad to help with that as well.
>
> I don't think I have much constructive feedback, other than that the
> development phase seems very short, with holidays and whatnot.

I was just looking at that as well, and have came up with 5 months of
development/testing (including from date F12 was released) for the
cycle? Just curious, isn't that kind of short? And as stated above,
not even realy 5 months, since all the major holidays are included in
this cycle.

--
Mike Chambers
Madisonville, KY

"Best lil town on Earth!"

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Old 11-25-2009, 03:47 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Fedora 13 Schedule

On Wed, 2009-11-25 at 07:58 -0600, Mike Chambers wrote:
> I was just looking at that as well, and have came up with 5 months of
> development/testing (including from date F12 was released) for the
> cycle? Just curious, isn't that kind of short? And as stated above,
> not even realy 5 months, since all the major holidays are included in
> this cycle.
>

Keep in mind that we've been able to do F-13 builds since 8/28 of 2009,
and while they weren't mirrored it was possible to consume these builds
and develop software against them.

Fedora currently aims to have a May1 / Oct 31 release set, and thus
those are the target areas we use when setting up schedules for the
associated releases. We then adjust for various factors, such as other
distro release dates and upstream release dates, but for better or
worse, we are currently a time based release with predictable release
points.

If people want this to change, it really needs to happen at a FESCo or
Board level. Releng is just creating the schedules with the current
constraints we have to work with.

--
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom˛ is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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Old 11-25-2009, 08:09 PM
John Poelstra
 
Default Fedora 13 Schedule

On 11/25/2009 05:58 AM, Mike Chambers wrote:

On Tue, 2009-11-24 at 19:44 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote:

On Tue, 2009-11-24 at 15:57 -0800, John Poelstra wrote:


The basic structure of Fedora 13 schedule has been set and will soon go
to FESCo for final approval. Once that happens I will build proposed
schedules for: Documentation, Translation, Design, Marketing, and Websites.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/13/Schedule
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13/f-13-releng-tasks.html

If you have constructive feedback for altering or enhancing the
schedule, now is the time to give it. If it would be helpful to create
a public Desktop specific schedule I'd be glad to help with that as well.


I don't think I have much constructive feedback, other than that the
development phase seems very short, with holidays and whatnot.


I was just looking at that as well, and have came up with 5 months of
development/testing (including from date F12 was released) for the
cycle? Just curious, isn't that kind of short? And as stated above,
not even realy 5 months, since all the major holidays are included in
this cycle.



Fedora does not usually factor in holidays. I've attempted to include
them in previous schedule drafts, but they were dismissed by others as
not being relevant to Fedora since we don't have official work days,
office hours, etc.. Granted if a serious freeze or release date
occurred during a major holiday period I'm sure they would reconsider,
but our release dates are such that they don't.


As Jesse said in a separate post we have committed to bi-annual release
dates around 31-OCT and 01-May each year. During the first draft of the
Fedora 13 I raised this as a concern, noting that when the previous
release slips it steals time from the next release.


In the case of Fedora 12, an extra week was added to accommodate for a
series of conferences happening at the same time as key release/freeze
dates. Two more weeks were added with the slip of the Alpha and Beta.
So you are correct, out of the gate Fedora 13 is shorted by 3 weeks
giving us almost a 5 month release window.


The flip side of this is Jesse's mention in another post about the
branch for Fedora 13 being open before the end of Fedora 12 and the thus
development being longer than five months. I'm not sure how this works
out in reality for development--if they can really take advantage of the
early opening of the next release or if 95% of their energy remains
focused on the release at hand.


John


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Old 11-25-2009, 08:45 PM
Matthias Clasen
 
Default Fedora 13 Schedule

On Wed, 2009-11-25 at 13:09 -0800, John Poelstra wrote:
> On 11/25/2009 05:58 AM, Mike Chambers wrote:
> > On Tue, 2009-11-24 at 19:44 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> >> On Tue, 2009-11-24 at 15:57 -0800, John Poelstra wrote:
> >>>
> >>> The basic structure of Fedora 13 schedule has been set and will soon go
> >>> to FESCo for final approval. Once that happens I will build proposed
> >>> schedules for: Documentation, Translation, Design, Marketing, and Websites.
> >>>
> >>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/13/Schedule
> >>> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13/f-13-releng-tasks.html
> >>>
> >>> If you have constructive feedback for altering or enhancing the
> >>> schedule, now is the time to give it. If it would be helpful to create
> >>> a public Desktop specific schedule I'd be glad to help with that as well.
> >>
> >> I don't think I have much constructive feedback, other than that the
> >> development phase seems very short, with holidays and whatnot.
> >
> > I was just looking at that as well, and have came up with 5 months of
> > development/testing (including from date F12 was released) for the
> > cycle? Just curious, isn't that kind of short? And as stated above,
> > not even realy 5 months, since all the major holidays are included in
> > this cycle.
> >
>
> Fedora does not usually factor in holidays. I've attempted to include
> them in previous schedule drafts, but they were dismissed by others as
> not being relevant to Fedora since we don't have official work days,
> office hours, etc.. Granted if a serious freeze or release date
> occurred during a major holiday period I'm sure they would reconsider,
> but our release dates are such that they don't.

I've seen plenty of earlier discussion where rel-eng was carefully
trying to triangulate the release date around thanksgiving or easter.
It seems somewhat unfair to say that rel-eng get to take holidays, but
developers are expected to work straight through... :-)


> The flip side of this is Jesse's mention in another post about the
> branch for Fedora 13 being open before the end of Fedora 12 and the thus
> development being longer than five months. I'm not sure how this works
> out in reality for development--if they can really take advantage of the
> early opening of the next release or if 95% of their energy remains
> focused on the release at hand.

If we want to get away from the 'just a feature dump' and 'just a beta'
monikers, we'll have to face the fact that it does not work out in
practise, at some point.

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Old 11-25-2009, 09:07 PM
John Poelstra
 
Default Fedora 13 Schedule

On 11/25/2009 01:45 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote:

On Wed, 2009-11-25 at 13:09 -0800, John Poelstra wrote:

On 11/25/2009 05:58 AM, Mike Chambers wrote:

On Tue, 2009-11-24 at 19:44 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote:

On Tue, 2009-11-24 at 15:57 -0800, John Poelstra wrote:


The basic structure of Fedora 13 schedule has been set and will soon go
to FESCo for final approval. Once that happens I will build proposed
schedules for: Documentation, Translation, Design, Marketing, and Websites.

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/13/Schedule
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13/f-13-releng-tasks.html

If you have constructive feedback for altering or enhancing the
schedule, now is the time to give it. If it would be helpful to create
a public Desktop specific schedule I'd be glad to help with that as well.


I don't think I have much constructive feedback, other than that the
development phase seems very short, with holidays and whatnot.


I was just looking at that as well, and have came up with 5 months of
development/testing (including from date F12 was released) for the
cycle? Just curious, isn't that kind of short? And as stated above,
not even realy 5 months, since all the major holidays are included in
this cycle.



Fedora does not usually factor in holidays. I've attempted to include
them in previous schedule drafts, but they were dismissed by others as
not being relevant to Fedora since we don't have official work days,
office hours, etc.. Granted if a serious freeze or release date
occurred during a major holiday period I'm sure they would reconsider,
but our release dates are such that they don't.


I've seen plenty of earlier discussion where rel-eng was carefully
trying to triangulate the release date around thanksgiving or easter.
It seems somewhat unfair to say that rel-eng get to take holidays, but
developers are expected to work straight through... :-)



That does sound inconsistent. Which releases did this happen for and
where did the discussion take place?


John

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Old 11-26-2009, 04:18 AM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Fedora 13 Schedule

On Nov 25, 2009, at 13:45, Matthias Clasen <mclasen@redhat.com> wrote:


On Wed, 2009-11-25 at 13:09 -0800, John Poelstra wrote:

On 11/25/2009 05:58 AM, Mike Chambers wrote:

On Tue, 2009-11-24 at 19:44 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote:

On Tue, 2009-11-24 at 15:57 -0800, John Poelstra wrote:


The basic structure of Fedora 13 schedule has been set and will
soon go
to FESCo for final approval. Once that happens I will build
proposed
schedules for: Documentation, Translation, Design, Marketing,
and Websites.


https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/13/Schedule
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13/f-13-releng-tasks.html

If you have constructive feedback for altering or enhancing the
schedule, now is the time to give it. If it would be helpful to
create
a public Desktop specific schedule I'd be glad to help with that
as well.


I don't think I have much constructive feedback, other than that
the

development phase seems very short, with holidays and whatnot.


I was just looking at that as well, and have came up with 5 months
of

development/testing (including from date F12 was released) for the
cycle? Just curious, isn't that kind of short? And as stated
above,
not even realy 5 months, since all the major holidays are included
in

this cycle.



Fedora does not usually factor in holidays. I've attempted to
include
them in previous schedule drafts, but they were dismissed by others
as

not being relevant to Fedora since we don't have official work days,
office hours, etc.. Granted if a serious freeze or release date
occurred during a major holiday period I'm sure they would
reconsider,

but our release dates are such that they don't.


I've seen plenty of earlier discussion where rel-eng was carefully
trying to triangulate the release date around thanksgiving or easter.
It seems somewhat unfair to say that rel-eng get to take holidays, but
developers are expected to work straight through... :-)


That's not it at all. We try to avoid any deadline that would fall on
or near a major holiday. That's more for the developers than releng.







The flip side of this is Jesse's mention in another post about the
branch for Fedora 13 being open before the end of Fedora 12 and the
thus
development being longer than five months. I'm not sure how this
works
out in reality for development--if they can really take advantage
of the

early opening of the next release or if 95% of their energy remains
focused on the release at hand.


If we want to get away from the 'just a feature dump' and 'just a
beta'

monikers, we'll have to face the fact that it does not work out in
practise, at some point.

--
Fedora-desktop-list mailing list
Fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list


--
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