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Old 01-04-2008, 05:01 PM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default musings on session service mgmt

On Jan 4, 2008 8:39 AM, David Zeuthen <davidz@redhat.com> wrote:
> Sorry, I'm not from around here. And last time I played Monopoly, I
> guess some 15-20 years ago, the USD was actually twice as much to the
> DKK than it is today.

Which makes the use of the phrase all that more interesting.. in a
very off-topic sort of way. Does US consumer culture have a
...monopoly... on widely adopted popular culture? It makes me a
little sad to think that it might. I was hoping interacting with a
global community, even if we are doing it in Englishese, I'd get a
chance to vacuum up some useful, badly translated and out-of-context
colloquial phrases from other cultures.

-jef"was really hoping the global internet community would develop a
pidgin language that looks more like Card's battle school pidgin and
less like aol-speak"spaleta

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Old 01-04-2008, 05:11 PM
seth vidal
 
Default musings on session service mgmt

On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 09:01 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
> On Jan 4, 2008 8:39 AM, David Zeuthen <davidz@redhat.com> wrote:
> > Sorry, I'm not from around here. And last time I played Monopoly, I
> > guess some 15-20 years ago, the USD was actually twice as much to the
> > DKK than it is today.
>
> Which makes the use of the phrase all that more interesting.. in a
> very off-topic sort of way. Does US consumer culture have a
> ...monopoly... on widely adopted popular culture? It makes me a
> little sad to think that it might. I was hoping interacting with a
> global community, even if we are doing it in Englishese, I'd get a
> chance to vacuum up some useful, badly translated and out-of-context
> colloquial phrases from other cultures.
>
> -jef"was really hoping the global internet community would develop a
> pidgin language that looks more like Card's battle school pidgin and
> less like aol-speak"spaleta

you're gathering a jeesh even now, ne?

-sv


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Old 01-04-2008, 05:18 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default musings on session service mgmt

On Fri, 04 Jan 2008 13:11:21 -0500
seth vidal <skvidal@fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> you're gathering a jeesh even now, ne?


Ho, seth.

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Old 01-04-2008, 05:47 PM
Colin Walters
 
Default musings on session service mgmt

On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 12:44 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote:

> I'm sorry but I don't have a magical list of all the potential programs
> that people may run. And if I did, I certainly wouldn't put myself
> through the pain of reviewing each and every program even if I had the
> source code.

Remember though - we're only talking about programs running in the
desktop session which don't connect to X. That set is radically smaller
than the set of "all potential programs".


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Old 01-04-2008, 05:50 PM
Nils Philippsen
 
Default musings on session service mgmt

On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 11:29 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote:
> Nils, it's very evident you are in the annoying "oh, but it's worked
> this way forever so we can't change it" camp. You need to accept that
> some of us are not and your camp is sometimes perceived as hindering
> progress.

David, you should have listened in on some of the conversations I had
with colleagues in the office, then you would have to admit that putting
me in the "change is baaad" crowd is a bit far-fetched.

If I wanted to talk in terms of "camps" or "crowds" (which I don't,
because this kind of simplification just causes hostilities), then I'd
put myself in the "let's look at this from all angles" or "don't break
things without good cause" corners. Granted, this in itself is a sure
recipe to annoy more people and it would help if I not just criticized
stuff but also e.g. talked about where I experience new things as
positive. Apologies for that.

> The indisputable fact is that X11 session service management
> is just *broken* as I outlined in my original mail. The fact that some
> people take advantage of this brokenness via screen, nohup etc. doesn't
> mean we shouldn't fix the fundamental problem. Doesn't mean either we
> shouldn't fix the few oddball cases such as screen and nohup to opt out
> of getting reaped.

If I'm not off track, at least screen predates X session management by a
few years. So if anything, X session management was (for want of a
better word) designed to not make established ways how to make a process
a daemon (and screen, nohup etc. do nothing else) break. It's bad that X
session management is broken, but I don't see a compelling reason yet
why stuff that has got nothing to do with X should accommodate
workarounds for such brokenness.

Or to phrase it in a (hopefully) less annoying way: I think it should be
feasible to have programs which should end with the session be
"bound" (by whatever means) to the session manager in a way where the
session manager kills them off at the end of the session without making
this leak to all child processes. Kind of like POSIX process groups,
where the session manager takes the role of the process group leader.
Hey, if GUI apps wouldn't have the obnoxious habit of disconnecting from
their parent processes (e.g. via the fork()/exit() "workaround" you
mentioned in another post), we even might get by with walking the
process tree from the session manager process downwards.

Talking about the issue at hand, there are already two ways that cause
processes to end if the session ends (libX11 and dbus), it should be
easy enough to fix the remainder properly.

Nils
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Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759
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Old 01-04-2008, 06:05 PM
Nils Philippsen
 
Default musings on session service mgmt

On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 12:34 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 18:26 +0100, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > I still believe the proper way to fix this is have some kind of
> > babysitter daemon that shares most of its code with the init
> > system. The problems for system startup and service management and for
> > session startup and service management are mostly the same. Both sides
> > would benefit if system and session startup/management would be
> > handled by the same powerful system.
>
> Indeed, but until that pie-in-the-blue-sky thing is available I think
> it's worthwhile to make this tiny enhancement (it would have been
> quicker to JFDI than entertaining a whole thread about it).

What is an enhancement in your scope would break things in other
people's scopes -- we would have had this discussion either way. By
discussing things first you at least escaped accusations of being part
of a "cabal" doing things "in the secret" and "shoving it down other
people's throats" ;-P.

Nils
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Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759
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Old 01-04-2008, 06:21 PM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default musings on session service mgmt

On Jan 4, 2008 9:50 AM, Nils Philippsen <nphilipp@redhat.com> wrote:
> If I'm not off track, at least screen predates X session management by a
> few years. So if anything, X session management was (for want of a
> better word) designed to not make established ways how to make a process
> a daemon (and screen, nohup etc. do nothing else) break.

I personally don't know what I would do if screen was forcibly exited
when I left the desktop environment. I've been relying on screen to
run data analysis processes which take a long time due primarily to
file i/o and not memory or cpu. What would be the quickest and least
annoying workaround for that behavior. I guess it would be to open a
gnome-terminal, then ssh into localhost and then start screen from
inside the ssh session. Then when the desktop session ended and all
related processes were killed, gnome-terminal and the ssh connection
would die, but the screen session would live because it was started
from inside the ssh session and thus outside the scope of desktop
session itself.

-jef

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Old 01-04-2008, 06:23 PM
David Zeuthen
 
Default musings on session service mgmt

On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 19:50 +0100, Nils Philippsen wrote:
> David, you should have listened in on some of the conversations

(JFYI It's pretty patronizing to address people like "XXX, blabla". It's
passive aggressive.)

As for the rest of the thread, I give up because, frankly, it's tiring
and this part of the open source "process" isn't my cup of tea. Have fun

David


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Old 01-04-2008, 06:54 PM
Soeren Sandmann Pedersen
 
Default musings on session service mgmt

"Jeff Spaleta" <jspaleta@gmail.com> writes:

> Which makes the use of the phrase all that more interesting.. in a
> very off-topic sort of way. Does US consumer culture have a
> ...monopoly... on widely adopted popular culture?

This particular game is so old that when it was introduced in Denmark
(I don't know exactly when, but definitely before the 1940's), it was
extensively localized. The name was changed to "Matador" and all the
property names were taken from Copenhagen street names. The board is
circular rather than square, and there is only one type of event
card.

Over time the prices in Matador have changed; in my parents' version
of the game you collect DKR 200 when you pass go, in the last version
I played, you collect DKR 4000. Another difference is that all the
pieces are cars - and always Volvos - in the Danish version.

I'm not sure the game would be changed that much if it were introduced
to Denmark today.


Soren

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Old 01-04-2008, 08:07 PM
Nils Philippsen
 
Default musings on session service mgmt

On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 14:23 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 19:50 +0100, Nils Philippsen wrote:
> > David, you should have listened in on some of the conversations
>
> (JFYI It's pretty patronizing to address people like "XXX, blabla".

It wasn't my intention to patronize you or anybody else just by
addressing you with your given name. Sorry for that.

> It's passive aggressive.)

It isn't. It'd rather be a lack of social graces ;-).

> As for the rest of the thread, I give up because, frankly, it's tiring
> and this part of the open source "process" isn't my cup of tea. Have fun

Arguing about different standpoints can be tiresome sometimes. Hopefully
I haven't tired you too much...

Nils
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Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759
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