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Old 01-04-2008, 04:05 PM
David Zeuthen
 
Default musings on session service mgmt

On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 12:01 -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
> Don't need luck in the original case you were talking about, just an
> editor and commit access to the upstream =)
>
> Here's a patch for GConf:

Might work for GConf; not going to work for the rest of the software on
the planet. See, if even upstream GNOME can't get this right.. then how
do you imagine the rest of the free-software eco-system getting it
right? Not to mention all the apps people run for which you will never
see the source...

David


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Old 01-04-2008, 04:12 PM
David Zeuthen
 
Default musings on session service mgmt

On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 12:04 -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
> Sending SIGHUP to all processes manually is fine; in theory actually the
> kernel will do this for you when the process session group leader exits.
> Now, whether something is correctly set as the process group leader in
> the twisted desktop login stack is an open question. A regression here
> would mostly be masked by the fact that *almost* everything run from the
> desktop does connect to X11.

Lots of programs (including GNOME ones) daemonizes e.g. creates their
own process group etc. etc. so clearly we can't rely on this.

That's why we need to iterate over the process list and send SIGHUP to
processes matching the uid and XDG_SESSION_COOKIE (or other attribute
but XDG_SESSION_COOKIE is what we have right now). It's not really
rocket science.

> > > Rather, some programs should be fixed to gain a dep on X11, DBus, or be
> > > run through the babysitter.
> >
> > Why do you think it's a good idea to add libX11 or libdbus deps to a
> > program that don't use either? Do you think random upstream projects
> > would ever take such patches?
>
> The babysitter is another option.

You are being vague here; I think you just use that term because Havoc
said something vague about a babysitter execing stuff. The way I read
this (it's vague so I'm guessing) sounds like it needs source code
modification and if it isn't clear I don't think that's an option.

> But I think (generally speaking) most
> projects nowadays *should* gain a dbus dep, and if we can explain
> clearly to them why it it useful, they would accept it.

I think that is what they call wishful thinking. Seriously.

David


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Old 01-04-2008, 04:26 PM
Lennart Poettering
 
Default musings on session service mgmt

On Thu, 03.01.08 20:10, David Zeuthen (davidz@redhat.com) wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> After investigating (please read the full report including links to
> desktop-devel-list)
>
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=427316
>
> I realized what an incredibly poor state session service management is
> in and what kind of hoops upstream authors jump through because neither
> X11, nor xdg or GNOME has provided them with useful infrastructure. It
> looks like KDE has _some_ kind of infrastructure for this.
>
> There are basically two problems that we've been ignoring and hacking
> around for as long as I've used Linux on the desktop

[...]

I still believe the proper way to fix this is have some kind of
babysitter daemon that shares most of its code with the init
system. The problems for system startup and service management and for
session startup and service management are mostly the same. Both sides
would benefit if system and session startup/management would be
handled by the same powerful system.

Lennart

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Old 01-04-2008, 04:32 PM
"Jeff Spaleta"
 
Default musings on session service mgmt

On Jan 4, 2008 6:22 AM, David Zeuthen <davidz@redhat.com> wrote:
> Do not pass start. Do not collect $100.

Has the value of the US dollar de-valued so much that we only get 100
in funny colored (what I assumed is Canadian) dollars for passing go
now?

-jef"Back in my day..we got $200..and we liked it"spaleta

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Old 01-04-2008, 04:34 PM
David Zeuthen
 
Default musings on session service mgmt

On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 18:26 +0100, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> I still believe the proper way to fix this is have some kind of
> babysitter daemon that shares most of its code with the init
> system. The problems for system startup and service management and for
> session startup and service management are mostly the same. Both sides
> would benefit if system and session startup/management would be
> handled by the same powerful system.

Indeed, but until that pie-in-the-blue-sky thing is available I think
it's worthwhile to make this tiny enhancement (it would have been
quicker to JFDI than entertaining a whole thread about it).

David


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Old 01-04-2008, 04:35 PM
seth vidal
 
Default musings on session service mgmt

On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 08:32 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
> On Jan 4, 2008 6:22 AM, David Zeuthen <davidz@redhat.com> wrote:
> > Do not pass start. Do not collect $100.
>
> Has the value of the US dollar de-valued so much that we only get 100
> in funny colored (what I assumed is Canadian) dollars for passing go
> now?
>

Well, and evidently it's been renamed to 'start' instead of 'go'.

crazy.

-sv


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Old 01-04-2008, 04:37 PM
Colin Walters
 
Default musings on session service mgmt

On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 12:12 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 12:04 -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
> > Sending SIGHUP to all processes manually is fine; in theory actually the
> > kernel will do this for you when the process session group leader exits.
> > Now, whether something is correctly set as the process group leader in
> > the twisted desktop login stack is an open question. A regression here
> > would mostly be masked by the fact that *almost* everything run from the
> > desktop does connect to X11.
>
> Lots of programs (including GNOME ones) daemonizes e.g. creates their
> own process group etc. etc. so clearly we can't rely on this.

There's no reason for programs to daemonize for the desktop session. If
they are, it's a bug. Most likely it's just a case of someone thinking
their program is l33t because it's a "daemon".

> That's why we need to iterate over the process list and send SIGHUP to
> processes matching the uid and XDG_SESSION_COOKIE (or other attribute
> but XDG_SESSION_COOKIE is what we have right now). It's not really
> rocket science.

It's also working around bugs in other apps; and I don't think the list
of buggy apps is very large. GConf and bonobo are the two main
offenders.

> You are being vague here; I think you just use that term because Havoc
> said something vague about a babysitter execing stuff. The way I read
> this (it's vague so I'm guessing) sounds like it needs source code
> modification and if it isn't clear I don't think that's an option.

It doesn't require modifying apps. The idea is just to have a binary
which monitors X11/DBus, and can fork()/exec() a child binary to
monitor. If X11 goes away, it kills the child. Thus the only thing
that needs to be modified is that the session startup script is changed
from:

some-random-daemon --args

to:

dbus-scope-to-session some-random-daemon --args

> > But I think (generally speaking) most
> > projects nowadays *should* gain a dbus dep, and if we can explain
> > clearly to them why it it useful, they would accept it.
>
> I think that is what they call wishful thinking. Seriously.

Let's be more concrete here - what other apps are buggy?


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Old 01-04-2008, 04:39 PM
David Zeuthen
 
Default musings on session service mgmt

On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 08:32 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
> On Jan 4, 2008 6:22 AM, David Zeuthen <davidz@redhat.com> wrote:
> > Do not pass start. Do not collect $100.
>
> Has the value of the US dollar de-valued so much that we only get 100
> in funny colored (what I assumed is Canadian) dollars for passing go
> now?
>
> -jef"Back in my day..we got $200..and we liked it"spaleta

Sorry, I'm not from around here. And last time I played Monopoly, I
guess some 15-20 years ago, the USD was actually twice as much to the
DKK than it is today.

David


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Old 01-04-2008, 04:42 PM
Colin Walters
 
Default musings on session service mgmt

On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 12:01 -0500, Colin Walters wrote:

> Here's a patch for GConf:

This issue can now be tracked at:
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=507310


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Old 01-04-2008, 04:44 PM
David Zeuthen
 
Default musings on session service mgmt

On Fri, 2008-01-04 at 12:37 -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
> It doesn't require modifying apps. The idea is just to have a binary
> which monitors X11/DBus, and can fork()/exec() a child binary to
> monitor. If X11 goes away, it kills the child. Thus the only thing
> that needs to be modified is that the session startup script is changed
> from:
>
> some-random-daemon --args
>
> to:
>
> dbus-scope-to-session some-random-daemon --args

Falls apart when some-random-daemon daemonizes...

> > > But I think (generally speaking) most
> > > projects nowadays *should* gain a dbus dep, and if we can explain
> > > clearly to them why it it useful, they would accept it.
> >
> > I think that is what they call wishful thinking. Seriously.
>
> Let's be more concrete here - what other apps are buggy?

I'm sorry but I don't have a magical list of all the potential programs
that people may run. And if I did, I certainly wouldn't put myself
through the pain of reviewing each and every program even if I had the
source code.

David


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