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Old 11-18-2009, 03:22 AM
"Jason D. Clinton"
 
Default Fedora 12 Three-clicks Experience

The other half of the email I sent a moment ago:

---

Again, just some observations; overall, the experience is wonderful.

First boot: no problems; looks great. Maybe should offer to auto-login new user.


GDM: for my encrypted harddrive use-case: I just entered my password to unlock the HDD, why do I have to enter it again to log in?


Fonts: LCD panel wasn't detected for sub-pixel rendering; fonts are blurry by default. Overall font quality is poor in contrast to default install of competitors' distros.

Nit-pick: bash-completion isn't installed by default.



Printing: Preferences > Default Printer and Administration > Printing is confusing. Perhaps renaming Preferences to User Settings and Administration to Administrator Settings would clarify.

Video codecs: no offer or mention of RPMfusion in contrast to competitors' distros. (fails the apple.com/trailers test)



Flash: Not offered to install in contrast to competitors' distros. (Only tried 64-bit Ubuntu as comparison here.)



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Old 11-18-2009, 03:27 AM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Fedora 12 Three-clicks Experience

On Tue, 2009-11-17 at 22:22 -0600, Jason D. Clinton wrote:
> Video codecs: no offer or mention of RPMfusion in contrast to competitors'
> distros. (fails the apple.com/trailers test)

Just replying to this one for now. The Fedora project cannot actually
mention RPMFusion outside of how
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/OtherRepositories is worded due to the
type of content carried at RPMFusion and it's legality within the United
States of America. Since Red Hat is a US headquartered company, and RHT
has legal responsibility over Fedora, Fedora needs to abide by US law.
It is unfortunate, but contributory infringement is a nasty issue to
deal with :/

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Old 11-18-2009, 05:41 AM
drago01
 
Default Fedora 12 Three-clicks Experience

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 5:22 AM, Jason D. Clinton <me@jasonclinton.com> wrote:

> Fonts: LCD panel wasn't detected for sub-pixel rendering; fonts are blurry
> by default. Overall font quality is poor in contrast to default install of
> competitors' distros.

Now, that the nasty patents expired we should be able to get better
looking fonts in F13.

I should ping bedhad to do that.

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Old 11-18-2009, 07:37 AM
Adam Williamson
 
Default Fedora 12 Three-clicks Experience

On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 07:41 +0100, drago01 wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 5:22 AM, Jason D. Clinton <me@jasonclinton.com> wrote:
>
> > Fonts: LCD panel wasn't detected for sub-pixel rendering; fonts are blurry
> > by default. Overall font quality is poor in contrast to default install of
> > competitors' distros.
>
> Now, that the nasty patents expired we should be able to get better
> looking fonts in F13.
>
> I should ping bedhad to do that.

'Nicer' is subjective. I don't actually like the patented rendering, I
prefer the non-patented. The above isn't actually referring to the
patented stuff, anyway - just whether subpixel hinting is enabled by
default. I think it's a sensible idea; surely LCD displays are
sufficiently widely used by now that we could default to subpixel
hinting in the GNOME font configuration, and that would be the best
choice for the majority of users?

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Old 11-18-2009, 07:40 AM
Adam Williamson
 
Default Fedora 12 Three-clicks Experience

On Tue, 2009-11-17 at 20:27 -0800, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-11-17 at 22:22 -0600, Jason D. Clinton wrote:
> > Video codecs: no offer or mention of RPMfusion in contrast to competitors'
> > distros. (fails the apple.com/trailers test)
>
> Just replying to this one for now. The Fedora project cannot actually
> mention RPMFusion outside of how
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/OtherRepositories is worded due to the
> type of content carried at RPMFusion and it's legality within the United
> States of America. Since Red Hat is a US headquartered company, and RHT
> has legal responsibility over Fedora, Fedora needs to abide by US law.
> It is unfortunate, but contributory infringement is a nasty issue to
> deal with :/

also, it would arguably be against the Fedora project's goals even if we
legally-speaking _could_. Fedora is not about convenient access to
proprietary software for short-term benefit. Fedora prefers to encourage
the use of free / open source / unencumbered alternatives. I don't think
it would fit with the Fedora project's goals to offer proprietary
drivers, codecs or extensions such as Flash even if we had the legal
okay to do it.

free-yet-patent-encumbered codecs are a bit of a grey area, granted. I'm
not sure how the Fedora philosophy covers those.

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Old 11-18-2009, 02:35 PM
Adam Jackson
 
Default Fedora 12 Three-clicks Experience

On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 00:37 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 07:41 +0100, drago01 wrote:
> > On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 5:22 AM, Jason D. Clinton <me@jasonclinton.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Fonts: LCD panel wasn't detected for sub-pixel rendering; fonts are blurry
> > > by default. Overall font quality is poor in contrast to default install of
> > > competitors' distros.
> >
> > Now, that the nasty patents expired we should be able to get better
> > looking fonts in F13.
> >
> > I should ping bedhad to do that.
>
> 'Nicer' is subjective. I don't actually like the patented rendering, I
> prefer the non-patented. The above isn't actually referring to the
> patented stuff, anyway - just whether subpixel hinting is enabled by
> default. I think it's a sensible idea; surely LCD displays are
> sufficiently widely used by now that we could default to subpixel
> hinting in the GNOME font configuration, and that would be the best
> choice for the majority of users?

This is probably worthwhile, though I'd like to get it right for the
inevitable day when some other display technology displaces LCDs too.
RANDR and KMS have this information though; we could just look at the
subpixel properties of the connected outputs.

- ajax
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Old 11-18-2009, 03:26 PM
"Jason D. Clinton"
 
Default Fedora 12 Three-clicks Experience

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 2:37 AM, Adam Williamson <awilliam@redhat.com> wrote:

On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 07:41 +0100, drago01 wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 5:22 AM, Jason D. Clinton <me@jasonclinton.com> wrote:

>

> > Fonts: LCD panel wasn't detected for sub-pixel rendering; fonts are blurry

> > by default. Overall font quality is poor in contrast to default install of

> > competitors' distros.

>

> Now, that the nasty patents expired we should be able to get better

> looking fonts in F13.

>

> I should ping bedhad to do that.



'Nicer' is subjective. I don't actually like the patented rendering, I

prefer the non-patented. The above isn't actually referring to the

patented stuff, anyway - just whether subpixel hinting is enabled by

default.
While I did mention the not-default sub-pixel, in fact, all the fonts look poorer in contrast to other distributions even when comparing sub-pixel to sub-pixel. And while font weighting can be quite subjective as you mention, the font hinting and kerning for the default desktop UI is just algorithmicly wrong. Look at "About this Computer" in the System menu. "b" has a giant loop while the adjacent "o" is 3/4's of b's width. There are, of course, examples all over the place of these hinting issues. In some cases, vertical lines fail to weight to an integer position resulting one side or the other having additional aliasing. Some fonts appear to be affected by this shortcoming more than others.



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Old 11-18-2009, 04:23 PM
Adam Williamson
 
Default Fedora 12 Three-clicks Experience

On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 10:26 -0600, Jason D. Clinton wrote:


> While I did mention the not-default sub-pixel, in fact, all the fonts
> look poorer in contrast to other distributions even when comparing
> sub-pixel to sub-pixel. And while font weighting can be quite
> subjective as you mention, the font hinting and kerning for the
> default desktop UI is just algorithmicly wrong. Look at "About this
> Computer" in the System menu. "b" has a giant loop while the adjacent
> "o" is 3/4's of b's width. There are, of course, examples all over the
> place of these hinting issues. In some cases, vertical lines fail to
> weight to an integer position resulting one side or the other having
> additional aliasing. Some fonts appear to be affected by this
> shortcoming more than others.

I can't argue with that as I don't have a default-configuration
reference handy, but I'm using stock Fedora freetype - not freeworld -
and my fonts don't look like that:

http://www.happyassassin.net/extras/fonts.png

that's using subpixel smoothing, full hinting, 96dpi resolution (which
is actually 'wrong' for my screen, but oh well) and RGB subpixel
ordering (varies by monitor, of course).

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Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
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Old 11-18-2009, 05:04 PM
Rui Tiago Cação Matos
 
Default Fedora 12 Three-clicks Experience

On 18/11/2009, Adam Williamson <awilliam@redhat.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 10:26 -0600, Jason D. Clinton wrote:
>
>
>> While I did mention the not-default sub-pixel, in fact, all the fonts
>> look poorer in contrast to other distributions even when comparing
>> sub-pixel to sub-pixel. And while font weighting can be quite
>> subjective as you mention, the font hinting and kerning for the
>> default desktop UI is just algorithmicly wrong. Look at "About this
>> Computer" in the System menu. "b" has a giant loop while the adjacent
>> "o" is 3/4's of b's width. There are, of course, examples all over the
>> place of these hinting issues. In some cases, vertical lines fail to
>> weight to an integer position resulting one side or the other having
>> additional aliasing. Some fonts appear to be affected by this
>> shortcoming more than others.
>
> I can't argue with that as I don't have a default-configuration
> reference handy, but I'm using stock Fedora freetype - not freeworld -
> and my fonts don't look like that:
>
> http://www.happyassassin.net/extras/fonts.png
>
> that's using subpixel smoothing, full hinting, 96dpi resolution (which
> is actually 'wrong' for my screen, but oh well) and RGB subpixel
> ordering (varies by monitor, of course).

But the default for F12 isn't that. It's grayscale smoothing, slight
hinting, 96 dpi, RGB order. In the past the default was medium
hinting.

The new default looks a lot like Mac OS X. Whether people "like" it is
a matter of the fonts in use and taste/visual acuity.

Rui

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Old 11-18-2009, 05:53 PM
Adam Williamson
 
Default Fedora 12 Three-clicks Experience

On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 18:04 +0000, Rui Tiago Cação Matos wrote:

> The new default looks a lot like Mac OS X. Whether people "like" it is
> a matter of the fonts in use and taste/visual acuity.

which is what I said in the first place. however, if the defaults lead
to objectively incorrect rendering as described by Jason on common
hardware, we should at least reconsider revising them again.

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