Desktop Live DVD: diff
 

Hi,

There has been some discussions about the increasing space constrains on
the Live CD and how we are better off targeting 1 GB USB keys with a
Live DVD image. I looked into it today and I have generated a image
based on the latest Rawhide.

The image size is 1022 M. Let me know if the following looks alright:

$ diff fedora-livecd-desktop.ks fedora-livedvd-desktop.ks

12a13
> @office
16,20c17,25
< # we don't include @office so that we don't get OOo. but some nice bits
< abiword
< #gnumeric
< #planner
< #inkscape
---
> inkscape
> gimp
> pitivi
> blender
> powertop
> gnome-shell
> tracker-search-tool
> gwibber
> ekiga
28,30d32
< -hunspell-*
< -man-pages*
< -words
33,45d34
< -gnome-user-docs
< -gimp-help
< -gimp-help-browser
< -gimp-data-extras
< -evolution-help
< -gnome-games
< -gnome-games-help
< -nss_db
< -vino
< -isdn4k-utils
< -dasher
< -evince-dvi
< -evince-djvu
48d36
< -wget
51,52d38
< -ekiga
< -tomboy
61,62c47,50
< -system-config-services
< -policycoreutils-gui
---
> system-config-services
> policycoreutils-gui
>
>


Rahul

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Desktop Live DVD: diff
 

On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

> $ diff fedora-livecd-desktop.ks fedora-livedvd-desktop.ks

every time you forget to use 'diff -u', god kills a kitten. =)

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Desktop Live DVD: diff
 

On 11/05/2009 02:50 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>
>> $ diff fedora-livecd-desktop.ks fedora-livedvd-desktop.ks
>
> every time you forget to use 'diff -u', god kills a kitten. =)

Fair enough. Here you go:

$ diff -u fedora-livecd-desktop.ks fedora-livedvd-desktop.ks

---

--- fedora-livecd-desktop.ks 2009-10-27 14:55:42.000000000 +0530
+++ fedora-livedvd-desktop.ks 2009-11-05 10:54:17.000000000 +0530
@@ -10,14 +10,19 @@
@graphics
@sound-and-video
@gnome-desktop
+@office
nss-mdns
NetworkManager-vpnc
NetworkManager-openvpn
-# we don't include @office so that we don't get OOo. but some nice bits
-abiword
-#gnumeric
-#planner
-#inkscape
+inkscape
+gimp
+pitivi
+blender
+powertop
+gnome-shell
+tracker-search-tool
+gwibber
+ekiga

# avoid weird case where we pull in more festival stuff than we need
festival
@@ -25,31 +30,12 @@

# dictionaries are big
-aspell-*
--hunspell-*
--man-pages*
--words

# save some space
--gnome-user-docs
--gimp-help
--gimp-help-browser
--gimp-data-extras
--evolution-help
--gnome-games
--gnome-games-help
--nss_db
--vino
--isdn4k-utils
--dasher
--evince-dvi
--evince-djvu
# not needed for gnome
-acpid
--wget

# these pull in excessive dependencies
--ekiga
--tomboy
-f-spot

# drop some system-config things
@@ -58,8 +44,10 @@
-system-config-lvm
-system-config-network
-system-config-rootpassword
--system-config-services
--policycoreutils-gui
+system-config-services
+policycoreutils-gui
+
+
%end

%post

---

Rahul

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Desktop Live DVD: diff
 

There is at least one change I agree with: including OpenOffice instead
of abiword. The rest, I am not so sure about.


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Desktop Live DVD: diff
 

On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> The image size is 1022 M.

This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use
units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G =
1,000,000,000 - e.g. the SI units.

It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M =
1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some may
be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") while
some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies.

It would probably be helpful to do a quick study of actual sizes of 1GB
USB sticks - we may end up wanting to do a 990 MB (990,000,000,000
bytes) image or something so the image works on as many USB sticks as
possible.

David


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Desktop Live DVD: diff
 

David Zeuthen (davidz@redhat.com) said:
> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > The image size is 1022 M.
>
> This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use
> units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G =
> 1,000,000,000 - e.g. the SI units.
>
> It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M =
> 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some may
> be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") while
> some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies.

Moreover, the closer you get to the full size, the less space you'll
have for any overlay.

Bill

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Desktop Live DVD: diff
 

On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 13:24 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> David Zeuthen (davidz@redhat.com) said:
> > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > > The image size is 1022 M.
> >
> > This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use
> > units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G =
> > 1,000,000,000 - e.g. the SI units.
> >
> > It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M =
> > 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some may
> > be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") while
> > some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies.
>
> Moreover, the closer you get to the full size, the less space you'll
> have for any overlay.

Good point. A quick search on the Internet suggests that 2GB sticks can
be had for < $10. So maybe we should just bite the bullet and target 2GB
keys and do a 1.7GB (1,700,000,000 bytes) image leaving ~300MB free for
the overlay.

Then leaves both wiggle-room and also enables us to include *compelling*
stuff like Ogg Theora videos featuring Shadowman etc etc.

David


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Desktop Live DVD: diff
 

On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 13:35 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 13:24 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> > David Zeuthen (davidz@redhat.com) said:
> > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > > > The image size is 1022 M.
> > >
> > > This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use
> > > units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G =
> > > 1,000,000,000 - e.g. the SI units.
> > >
> > > It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M =
> > > 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some may
> > > be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") while
> > > some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies.
> >
> > Moreover, the closer you get to the full size, the less space you'll
> > have for any overlay.
>
> Good point. A quick search on the Internet suggests that 2GB sticks can
> be had for < $10. So maybe we should just bite the bullet and target 2GB
> keys and do a 1.7GB (1,700,000,000 bytes) image leaving ~300MB free for
> the overlay.
>
> Then leaves both wiggle-room and also enables us to include *compelling*
> stuff like Ogg Theora videos featuring Shadowman etc etc.

Personally I think one of the nice things about a live CD image is it
creates a good restriction for building a nice focused working system in
a reasonable amount of space. 1GB would more or less keep that; 2GB is
starting to introduce an awful lot of wiggle room for not caring about
including useless crap.

And remember, large USB keys may be cheap as chips nowadays but
bandwidth ain't, always. Aren't there still people in Australia with
absurd caps like 10GB/month?

I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small
functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box'
image 2GB big'.

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Desktop Live DVD: diff
 

On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:

> I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small
> functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box'
> image 2GB big'.
>

The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice.
Including that brings us up to around 850M or so.

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Desktop Live DVD: diff
 

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 8:56 PM, Matthias Clasen <mclasen@redhat.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small
>> functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box'
>> image 2GB big'.
>>
>
> The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice.
> Including that brings us up to around 850M or so.

Finally we can move away from the 1990s (CDs), but yeah I agree
besides OO.org I can't think of an app that I really miss on the live
media.

Just because we do have more space available does not mean that we
have to fill it with random crap.

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