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Old 11-05-2009, 07:34 PM
David Zeuthen
 
Default Desktop Live DVD: diff

On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:
> Personally I think one of the nice things about a live CD image is it
> creates a good restriction for building a nice focused working system in
> a reasonable amount of space. 1GB would more or less keep that; 2GB is
> starting to introduce an awful lot of wiggle room for not caring about
> including useless crap.

Nah, this is a bad reason - and if it's the case we're already doomed.

(FWIW, I don't think it's the case - I trust Matthias and other Live CD
desktop maintainers to put only sensible stuff on our images.)

Also, no-one says we _must_ include useless crap or even use all of the
space. And no-one says the space we're going to use is to be used for
software. I've advocated earlier that we should try and promote things
like Ogg Theora. For example, we could include

http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/

on the media. In my view, that would make Fedora a lot more appealing.

> And remember, large USB keys may be cheap as chips nowadays but
> bandwidth ain't, always. Aren't there still people in Australia with
> absurd caps like 10GB/month?

They do have mirrors in Australia.

> I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small
> functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box'
> image 2GB big'.

No one says the desktop image should be "our smallest
'complete-out-of-the-box' image". In fact, I think it would be a mistake
to say it should be.

Also: Remember the days before live CDs? Back then, about 3+ years ago,
we didn't have any problems asking people to download a whopping six
CDs.

F13 will be released in 2010.

David


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Old 11-05-2009, 07:37 PM
Seth Vidal
 
Default Desktop Live DVD: diff

On Thu, 5 Nov 2009, David Zeuthen wrote:


On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:

Personally I think one of the nice things about a live CD image is it
creates a good restriction for building a nice focused working system in
a reasonable amount of space. 1GB would more or less keep that; 2GB is
starting to introduce an awful lot of wiggle room for not caring about
including useless crap.


Nah, this is a bad reason - and if it's the case we're already doomed.

(FWIW, I don't think it's the case - I trust Matthias and other Live CD
desktop maintainers to put only sensible stuff on our images.)

Also, no-one says we _must_ include useless crap or even use all of the
space. And no-one says the space we're going to use is to be used for
software. I've advocated earlier that we should try and promote things
like Ogg Theora. For example, we could include

http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/

on the media. In my view, that would make Fedora a lot more appealing.


And remember, large USB keys may be cheap as chips nowadays but
bandwidth ain't, always. Aren't there still people in Australia with
absurd caps like 10GB/month?


They do have mirrors in Australia.


I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small
functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box'
image 2GB big'.


No one says the desktop image should be "our smallest
'complete-out-of-the-box' image". In fact, I think it would be a mistake
to say it should be.

Also: Remember the days before live CDs? Back then, about 3+ years ago,
we didn't have any problems asking people to download a whopping six
CDs.



Well, to be fair we didn't tell them download 6 cds. We told them, if they
were bandwidth-restricted to download the boot.iso and boot and install
via the net talking to a local mirror.



not disputing any other points - but it's not like the super-small image
has ever been 6-cds.


-sv

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Old 11-05-2009, 07:47 PM
Lars Herrmann
 
Default Desktop Live DVD: diff

Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 14:56 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen:
> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:
>
> > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small
> > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box'
> > image 2GB big'.
> >
>
> The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice.
> Including that brings us up to around 850M or so.

But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages
provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or
language-group spins ?

Just a thought

Lars

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Old 11-05-2009, 07:50 PM
Bill Nottingham
 
Default Desktop Live DVD: diff

Lars Herrmann (herrmann@redhat.com) said:
> But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages
> provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or
> language-group spins ?

That explodes the testing matrix, though. (And makes something
that needs to support some superset of languages a mess.)

Bill

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Old 11-05-2009, 07:50 PM
drago01
 
Default Desktop Live DVD: diff

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Lars Herrmann <herrmann@redhat.com> wrote:
> Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 14:56 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen:
>> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:
>>
>> > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small
>> > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box'
>> > image 2GB big'.
>> >
>>
>> The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice.
>> Including that brings us up to around 850M or so.
>
> But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages
> provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or
> language-group spins ?
>
> Just a thought

Asking users to install random language packs isn't a good user
experience, and if the only reason for that is "we still don't
acknowledge that we are in the 21st century ...."

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Old 11-05-2009, 07:52 PM
David Zeuthen
 
Default Desktop Live DVD: diff

On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 15:37 -0500, Seth Vidal wrote:
> > Also: Remember the days before live CDs? Back then, about 3+ years ago,
> > we didn't have any problems asking people to download a whopping six
> > CDs.
> >
>
> Well, to be fair we didn't tell them download 6 cds. We told them, if they
> were bandwidth-restricted to download the boot.iso and boot and install
> via the net talking to a local mirror.

Right, that's true. I remember doing that a lot. IIRC, if choosing a
minimal install the first two CDs would suffice (if the stars were
properly aligned I think - ISTR that it broke at one point).

Anyway, people can still do that, right? (honest question, not trolling.
I don't really know; these days I never use anything but the Live CD to
install.)

Thanks,
David

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Old 11-05-2009, 07:56 PM
Seth Vidal
 
Default Desktop Live DVD: diff

On Thu, 5 Nov 2009, David Zeuthen wrote:


On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 15:37 -0500, Seth Vidal wrote:

Also: Remember the days before live CDs? Back then, about 3+ years ago,
we didn't have any problems asking people to download a whopping six
CDs.



Well, to be fair we didn't tell them download 6 cds. We told them, if they
were bandwidth-restricted to download the boot.iso and boot and install
via the net talking to a local mirror.


Right, that's true. I remember doing that a lot. IIRC, if choosing a
minimal install the first two CDs would suffice (if the stars were
properly aligned I think - ISTR that it broke at one point).

Anyway, people can still do that, right? (honest question, not trolling.
I don't really know; these days I never use anything but the Live CD to
install.)


yep. In f11 it's called netinst.

Fedora-11-i386-netinst.iso

for example.

it's 177MB. Which is pretty light weight. It has stage2 on it iirc.

-sv

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Old 11-05-2009, 07:58 PM
Lars Herrmann
 
Default Desktop Live DVD: diff

Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 21:50 +0100 schrieb drago01:
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Lars Herrmann <herrmann@redhat.com> wrote:
> > Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 14:56 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen:
> >> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:
> >>
> >> > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small
> >> > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box'
> >> > image 2GB big'.
> >> >
> >>
> >> The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice.
> >> Including that brings us up to around 850M or so.
> >
> > But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages
> > provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or
> > language-group spins ?
> >
> > Just a thought
>
> Asking users to install random language packs isn't a good user
> experience, and if the only reason for that is "we still don't
> acknowledge that we are in the 21st century ...."
>

The point is that it in fact *is* annoying that a significant chunk of
space goes to totally irrelevant packages. I am typically installing 3
languages on my system and I am sure this represents a tiny fraction of
the user base. North of 90% will never ever use more than one language.
And they will know which one they need prior to downloading

Having a button in the distro to "add a language" is a useful feature
anyway - it's a bit of a pain today if you want to add a language later
and have to find out which packages to add. Same goes for removing.

But I'm not aware of all implications of course ...

Lars

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Old 11-05-2009, 08:20 PM
Matthias Clasen
 
Default Desktop Live DVD: diff

On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 21:47 +0100, Lars Herrmann wrote:
> Am Donnerstag, den 05.11.2009, 14:56 -0500 schrieb Matthias Clasen:
> > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 11:55 -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:
> >
> > > I'm not sure I like the idea, if the idea is 'stop doing a small
> > > functional live image and make our smallest 'complete-out-of-the-box'
> > > image 2GB big'.
> > >
> >
> > The biggest gap in terms of 'complete-out-of-the-box' is OpenOffice.
> > Including that brings us up to around 850M or so.
>
> But isn't this just because of the 3 million language packages
> provided ? Could the size kept small by providing uni-language or
> language-group spins ?
>
> Just a thought
>

I did that experiment back in August. Here is what I wrote back then:

> Replacing abiword with the entire openoffice suite blows the iso
> size up to 825M.
>
> Replacing abiword with just oowriter still blows the iso size up
> to 820M.
>
> This is without any openoffice lang packs.




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Old 11-05-2009, 09:56 PM
"Paul W. Frields"
 
Default Desktop Live DVD: diff

On Thu, Nov 05, 2009 at 01:35:26PM -0500, David Zeuthen wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 13:24 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> > David Zeuthen (davidz@redhat.com) said:
> > > On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > > > The image size is 1022 M.
> > >
> > > This is likely too big, remember drive manufacturers don't really use
> > > units like KiB MiB or GiB - they use 1K = 1000, 1M = 1,000,000 and 1G =
> > > 1,000,000,000 - e.g. the SI units.
> > >
> > > It seems to me that most 1GB USB keys have a size of 1GB = 1,000M =
> > > 1,000,000,000 bytes. Some are 1024MB (1024,000,000,000 bytes), some may
> > > be a bit smaller (e.g. "value-adds" like the Sandisk U3 "CD-ROM") while
> > > some may actually be 1024 MiB (1,099,511,627,776 bytes). It varies.
> >
> > Moreover, the closer you get to the full size, the less space you'll
> > have for any overlay.
>
> Good point. A quick search on the Internet suggests that 2GB sticks can
> be had for < $10. So maybe we should just bite the bullet and target 2GB
> keys and do a 1.7GB (1,700,000,000 bytes) image leaving ~300MB free for
> the overlay.
>
> Then leaves both wiggle-room and also enables us to include *compelling*
> stuff like Ogg Theora videos featuring Shadowman etc etc.

The price differences between 1GB and 2GB sticks seem minimal (and you
can find some 2GB cheaper than 1GB, of course). I lobbied purposely
with the Red Hat Summit organizers to make sure we gave out Fedora on
2GB keys so that we could have a sizable key.

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