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-   -   Request for comments for Banshee transition feature proposal (http://www.linux-archive.org/fedora-desktop/251392-request-comments-banshee-transition-feature-proposal.html)

David Nielsen 02-24-2009 06:44 AM

Request for comments for Banshee transition feature proposal
 
Per the request of Brian Pebble I am submitting the following feature proposal for the desktop SIG to comment on:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/BansheeAsDefaultMediaplayer


Kind regards,
David Nielsen

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Bastien Nocera 02-24-2009 10:18 AM

Request for comments for Banshee transition feature proposal
 
On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 08:44 +0100, David Nielsen wrote:
> Per the request of Brian Pebble I am submitting the following feature
> proposal for the desktop SIG to comment on:
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/BansheeAsDefaultMediaplayer

Given that the feature request is a knee-jerk reaction[1] to one
Rhythmbox maintainer saying he sees the current code base as a dead-end
for a few use cases, I'm pretty happy to say I'd refuse the idea
point-blank.

It also seems the latest stable release crashes when playing videos on
my machine, and spits out loads of uncaught exceptions on startup.

FWIW, I've added my comments to:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Talk:Features/BansheeAsDefaultMediaplayer
and filed the two bugs I found whilst starting up Banshee:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=487117
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=487120

Cheers

[1]: https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Features/BansheeAsDefaultMediaplayer&oldid=81191

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David Nielsen 02-24-2009 12:01 PM

Request for comments for Banshee transition feature proposal
 
2009/2/24 Bastien Nocera <bnocera@redhat.com>

On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 08:44 +0100, David Nielsen wrote:

> Per the request of Brian Pebble I am submitting the following feature

> proposal for the desktop SIG to comment on:

>

> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/BansheeAsDefaultMediaplayer



Given that the feature request is a knee-jerk reaction[1] to one

Rhythmbox maintainer saying he sees the current code base as a dead-end

for a few use cases, I'm pretty happy to say I'd refuse the idea

point-blank.
As I explained to you in a reply to the accusatorial private email you sent me, this is clearly based on the technical superiority of Banshee. I have previously expressed an interest in proposing this.


http://davidnielsen.wordpress.com/2008/12/05/little-hopes-for-fedora-11-and-beyond/ - posted on December 5, 2008


Item 5:
Banshee as the default media player, with itīs aggressive development
plan and responsive developers it seems to make a lot more sense to me
as our default. It also presents much nicer bling and cooler features.
I like that we can count on releases happening often with major
improvements happening each time. E.g. in the pipeline now is things
like rockbox integration meaning we might be able to offer users a way
to convert a player to use only free software and free formats soon
(something that seems like an issue for some due to codec patents).

Now will you please show your fellow Fedora contributors some common decency and respect.



It also seems the latest stable release crashes when playing videos on

my machine, and spits out loads of uncaught exceptions on startup.



FWIW, I've added my comments to:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Talk:Features/BansheeAsDefaultMediaplayer

and filed the two bugs I found whilst starting up Banshee:
I will reply to these as soon as possible



https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=487117

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=487120
Thank you for your bugreports, as you will have noticed I have already started working on them.


- David

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Bastien Nocera 02-24-2009 03:00 PM

Request for comments for Banshee transition feature proposal
 
On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 14:01 +0100, David Nielsen wrote:
>
>
> 2009/2/24 Bastien Nocera <bnocera@redhat.com>
> On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 08:44 +0100, David Nielsen wrote:
> > Per the request of Brian Pebble I am submitting the
> following feature
> > proposal for the desktop SIG to comment on:
> >
> >
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/BansheeAsDefaultMediaplayer
>
>
> Given that the feature request is a knee-jerk reaction[1] to
> one
> Rhythmbox maintainer saying he sees the current code base as a
> dead-end
> for a few use cases, I'm pretty happy to say I'd refuse the
> idea
> point-blank.
>
> As I explained to you in a reply to the accusatorial private email you
> sent me, this is clearly based on the technical superiority of
> Banshee. I have previously expressed an interest in proposing this.
<snip>
> Now will you please show your fellow Fedora contributors some common
> decency and respect.

I think we got past that point when you proposed this feature for
inclusion without discussing it with any of the other interested
parties.

This is not the same as replacing Pidgin with Empathy, or replacing
nautilus-cd-burner with Brasero. The former just got into GNOME, and is
a front-end to a new platform feature, and the latter was replaced
(acrimonously) upstream.

> It also seems the latest stable release crashes when playing
> videos on
> my machine, and spits out loads of uncaught exceptions on
> startup.
>
> FWIW, I've added my comments to:
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Talk:Features/BansheeAsDefaultMediaplayer
> and filed the two bugs I found whilst starting up Banshee:
>
> I will reply to these as soon as possible
>
>
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=487117
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=487120
>
> Thank you for your bugreports, as you will have noticed I have already
> started working on them.

I filed 2 more when trying to reproduce those bugs:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=487152
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=487155

Cheers

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Martin Sourada 02-24-2009 10:19 PM

Request for comments for Banshee transition feature proposal
 
On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 08:44 +0100, David Nielsen wrote:
> Per the request of Brian Pebble I am submitting the following feature
> proposal for the desktop SIG to comment on:
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/BansheeAsDefaultMediaplayer
>
Well, I am not a member of the desktop SIG and as such I have no word in
the actual choosing (other than expressing my opinion), but I personally
don't think it is a good idea. First of all Rhythmbox was still Gnome
default audio player and Totem video player last time I checked, second
I am regular user of both and actually find them pretty usable *and*
efficient and third, but not last, banshee is pulling in mono stuff,
which is first a bit controversial (a really tiny bit, mostly caused by
the fact that C# was developed by a certain company that people in *nix
world don't usually have pleasant tea parties with) and second, most
importantly, for the Desktop Live Spin it's another ~30 MiB worth of
packages...

Also from what I read, it also joins the functionality of video and
audio players... Well, while there is some non-zero intersection of
those, I don't quite like having it both managed by one app. That's not
how gnome apps usually do it.

> Kind regards,
> David Nielsen
Martin
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David Nielsen 02-24-2009 10:44 PM

Request for comments for Banshee transition feature proposal
 
Den 25. feb. 2009 00.19 skrev Martin Sourada <martin.sourada@gmail.com>:



>

Well, I am not a member of the desktop SIG and as such I have no word in

the actual choosing (other than expressing my opinion), but I personally

don't think it is a good idea. First of all Rhythmbox was still Gnome

default audio player and Totem video player last time I checked, second

I am regular user of both and actually find them pretty usable *and*

efficient and third, but not last, banshee is pulling in mono stuff,

which is first a bit controversial (a really tiny bit, mostly caused by

the fact that C# was developed by a certain company that people in *nix

world don't usually have pleasant tea parties with) and second, most

importantly, for the Desktop Live Spin it's another ~30 MiB worth of

packages...
Rhythmbox is not the default GNOME mediaplayer, GNOME only ships Totem.

Till such a time as Fedora deems Mono non-free, the fact that Mono and banshee is present means it lives up to the strict guidelines for freedom Fedora requires and should be able to be considered on equal footing. If we are second class citizens without any chance of ever being included please tell us officially, I am sure I and the other people working tirelessly to improve Mono would love to know if we are wasting our time, if that is the case it might save everyone a lot of headaches and wasted manhours of contributions that could be invested in non-Fedora venue which is interested in this work.


I am aware of the media size increase, it is noted as a con. I know there is space to be saved by getting the debug stripper fixed to understand mono as every package currently ships those included since this functionality still isn't present. i have also been able to shave a bit off cleaning out the dependency chain. I am also investigating other improvements to our mono stack which should give size decreases for the entire stack.

*
Also from what I read, it also joins the functionality of video and

audio players... Well, while there is some non-zero intersection of

those, I don't quite like having it both managed by one app. That's not

how gnome apps usually do it.
I have to admit I kinda like it, I was skeptical at first. Where it really starts to shine is for video podcasts, automatically downloaded (and with a bit of dbus magic even torrent payloads can be downloaded which is really powerful not to mention shiny). There is an increasing intersection of differing kinds of media in peoples collections, vodcasts, music videos, tv shows, movies, e.g. I believe it's valuable to interact with them through the same library and application.


- David Nielsen

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Martin Sourada 02-24-2009 11:11 PM

Request for comments for Banshee transition feature proposal
 
On Wed, 2009-02-25 at 00:44 +0100, David Nielsen wrote:

> Rhythmbox is not the default GNOME mediaplayer, GNOME only ships
> Totem.
>
My mistake.

> Till such a time as Fedora deems Mono non-free, the fact that Mono and
> banshee is present means it lives up to the strict guidelines for
> freedom Fedora requires and should be able to be considered on equal
> footing. If we are second class citizens without any chance of ever
> being included please tell us officially, I am sure I and the other
> people working tirelessly to improve Mono would love to know if we are
> wasting our time, if that is the case it might save everyone a lot of
> headaches and wasted manhours of contributions that could be invested
> in non-Fedora venue which is interested in this work.
>
I think it has/should have equal footing to say C++ or python stuff
(that said, I prefer to have plain C applications as much as possible,
partly because every other language needs an additional layer of
bindings if it uses GTK+), but the design and the background being how
it is makes it somehow less favourable choice for being installed by
default (I recall when people [users] complained back in the time when
mono was shipped first in Fedora about it actually being there, but
times change...). But I certainly wouldn't hold it back *just* because
of this.

> Also from what I read, it also joins the functionality of
> video and
> audio players... Well, while there is some non-zero
> intersection of
> those, I don't quite like having it both managed by one app.
> That's not
> how gnome apps usually do it.
>
> I have to admit I kinda like it, I was skeptical at first. Where it
> really starts to shine is for video podcasts, automatically downloaded
> (and with a bit of dbus magic even torrent payloads can be downloaded
> which is really powerful not to mention shiny). There is an increasing
> intersection of differing kinds of media in peoples collections,
> vodcasts, music videos, tv shows, movies, e.g. I believe it's valuable
> to interact with them through the same library and application.
>
Well, it's valuable to interact with them through the same library, but
I still prefer having say three tightly connected small applications
optimized for the very task they ought to do rather than having a big
one doing all that by itself...

> - David Nielsen
>
Martin

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Roy Bynum 02-24-2009 11:17 PM

Request for comments for Banshee transition feature proposal
 
David Nielsen wrote:




Den 25. feb. 2009 00.19 skrev Martin Sourada
<martin.sourada@gmail.com>:



>


Well, I am not a member of the desktop SIG and as such I have no word in

the actual choosing (other than expressing my opinion), but I personally

don't think it is a good idea. First of all Rhythmbox was still Gnome

default audio player and Totem video player last time I checked, second

I am regular user of both and actually find them pretty usable *and*

efficient and third, but not last, banshee is pulling in mono stuff,

which is first a bit controversial (a really tiny bit, mostly caused by

the fact that C# was developed by a certain company that people in *nix

world don't usually have pleasant tea parties with) and second, most

importantly, for the Desktop Live Spin it's another ~30 MiB worth of

packages...


Rhythmbox is not the default GNOME mediaplayer, GNOME only ships Totem.




Till such a time as Fedora deems Mono non-free, the fact that Mono and
banshee is present means it lives up to the strict guidelines for
freedom Fedora requires and should be able to be considered on equal
footing. If we are second class citizens without any chance of ever
being included please tell us officially, I am sure I and the other
people working tirelessly to improve Mono would love to know if we are
wasting our time, if that is the case it might save everyone a lot of
headaches and wasted manhours of contributions that could be invested
in non-Fedora venue which is interested in this work.



I am aware of the media size increase, it is noted as a con. I know
there is space to be saved by getting the debug stripper fixed to
understand mono as every package currently ships those included since
this functionality still isn't present. i have also been able to shave
a bit off cleaning out the dependency chain. I am also investigating
other improvements to our mono stack which should give size decreases
for the entire stack.

*


Also
from what I read, it also joins the functionality of video and

audio players... Well, while there is some non-zero intersection of

those, I don't quite like having it both managed by one app. That's not

how gnome apps usually do it.


I have to admit I kinda like it, I was skeptical at first. Where it
really starts to shine is for video podcasts, automatically downloaded
(and with a bit of dbus magic even torrent payloads can be downloaded
which is really powerful not to mention shiny). There is an increasing
intersection of differing kinds of media in peoples collections,
vodcasts, music videos, tv shows, movies, e.g. I believe it's valuable
to interact with them through the same library and application.



- David Nielsen




David,



I am sure that everyone in the group appreciated your and others
efforts to support Mono applications.* I am interested in your comment
about shaving off some of the size of the Mono "stack".* We have been
having the discussion about perceived desktop performance.* In years
past, as a real time systems programmer, I became very aware that one
of the primary performance issues is the size of the code that is being
executed.* In reducing the size of the "stack", will you also be
providing something of an inprovement to the perceived performance of
the applications using that "stack"?



-Roy Bynum



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Jesse Keating 02-24-2009 11:18 PM

Request for comments for Banshee transition feature proposal
 
On Wed, 2009-02-25 at 00:44 +0100, David Nielsen wrote:
>
> Till such a time as Fedora deems Mono non-free, the fact that Mono and
> banshee is present means it lives up to the strict guidelines for freedom
> Fedora requires and should be able to be considered on equal footing. If we
> are second class citizens without any chance of ever being included please
> tell us officially, I am sure I and the other people working tirelessly to
> improve Mono would love to know if we are wasting our time, if that is the
> case it might save everyone a lot of headaches and wasted manhours of
> contributions that could be invested in non-Fedora venue which is interested
> in this work.

Red Hat Enterprise Linux continues to not ship mono. Draw your own
conclusions.

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Fedora -- Freedomē is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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David Nielsen 02-25-2009 06:21 AM

Request for comments for Banshee transition feature proposal
 
Den 25. feb. 2009 01.17 skrev Roy Bynum <rabynum@ieee.org>:










David,



I am sure that everyone in the group appreciated your and others
efforts to support Mono applications.* I am interested in your comment
about shaving off some of the size of the Mono "stack".* We have been
having the discussion about perceived desktop performance.* In years
past, as a real time systems programmer, I became very aware that one
of the primary performance issues is the size of the code that is being
executed.* In reducing the size of the "stack", will you also be
providing something of an inprovement to the perceived performance of
the applications using that "stack"?
The biggest win I suspect will be fixing the debug stripper and then introducing a mass rebuild of the mono packages. I unfortunately am not qualified to perform that change (I believe a bug exists for this). Then we might be able to gain some savings by looking hard at our support, I haven't looked into this suffiencently to see if it applies to the Fedora Mono stack but by cutting out the obsoleted Mono 1 support from the builds we should be able to cut some 15% from the existing packages. This last one comes from brief conversations with directhex who does Mono work in Ubuntu and has helped coordinate similar work between Ubuntu and Debian, I have not yet been able to get ahold of our Mono maintainer to determine if this is suitable for us.


Aside that, I have noticed that as versions get bumped and libraries are replaced the spec files aren't getting updated correctly always. Having a review of what we truly need to depend on is valuable. I was able to cut a bit of fat from the banshee build already this way.


I am hoping an approach of little gains here and there will both improve the Mono stack and get us closer to reaching the cd size limit. At any rate it is valuable work.

Also on the list of things to do currently is fixing up the Mono packages to actually ship their documentation and update monodocs index, these will become separate packages and should not add any fat though.


All of this though should be fairly irrelvant when it come to the debate at hand, namely the technical merits of Banshee. I have contacted the two main upstream maintainers and they have both kindly agreed to attend an eventual IRC meeting to help answer questions as well as expanding the feature proposal page.


- David

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