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Old 11-06-2008, 10:12 PM
Matthias Clasen
 
Default The desktop beyond F10

Hey all,

with F10 closing in on the finish line, it is time to start thinking
about how we envision the Fedora Desktop to look beyond F10. To that
end, we (mostly Jon and me, with some help from other desktop team
members) have started to put some of our ideas for how to improve the
desktop experience into written form.

You can find this material here:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/Whiteboards

Currently this is just a pretty unsorted mixture of wild ideas,
implementation details and concrete plans, and a lot of them are missing
details, user stories and use cases. Don't misunderstand it as 'the plan
for the F11 desktop'.

But I hope that it is filled out enough to provide some idea in what
direction we would like to move the desktop. Over the next weeks, we'll
turn the things that we are going to tackle for F11 into regular feature
pages.

Comments and feedback welcome, either on this list or in the discussion
tabs.


Matthias

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Old 11-07-2008, 07:40 AM
Nicu Buculei
 
Default The desktop beyond F10

Matthias Clasen wrote:

Hey all,


Hi,


with F10 closing in on the finish line, it is time to start thinking
about how we envision the Fedora Desktop to look beyond F10. To that
end, we (mostly Jon and me, with some help from other desktop team
members) have started to put some of our ideas for how to improve the
desktop experience into written form.


You can find this material here:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/Whiteboards

[...]

Comments and feedback welcome, either on this list or in the discussion
tabs.


I think commenting here is a better way, since is hard to keep track of
comments on so many wiki pages.


"Better Face Images" is one of the features. Diana worked on that before
she left (http://www.isity.net/blog/?p=65), maybe we can leverage
somehow her work, do a better selection from the collected images or
star to collect a new batch. Leave us know it the Art Team can help with
that.


There are also two related features, "Wallpaper" and "Backgrounds
channel", for which I think the best way forward is to link them
together, why struggle with an sub-optimal selection process (which, any
way you make, will get some un-pleased) when we can offer everything
with one click using RSS feeds.
I don't like the part about randomly assigning an initial background,
one think I learned from GNOME is that good defaults matter.


For the "Better Fonts" feature, it may not be what you envisioned, but
we at the Art Team are actively asking for "artsy" fonts, things like
Rufscript or Beteckna. We don't want those in the default install, but
is handy to have them easy available.


--
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com
Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/
Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org
my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro

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Old 11-07-2008, 02:02 PM
Dan Winship
 
Default The desktop beyond F10

Matthias Clasen wrote:
> Comments and feedback welcome, either on this list or in the discussion
> tabs.

> Default CD ripper Make Rhythmbox as good as iTunes for CD import

My last CD-ripping experience went like this: Insert CD 1. Rip CD 1.
Insert CD 2. Rip CD 2. Insert CD 3. Rip CD 3. ... Rip CD 6. Plug in MP3
player. Open the Music folder in Nautilus. Select the files to
copy---GOD DAMN YOU RHYTHMBOX! WHY THE $@!^#@$%^#$% DID YOU OUTPUT .OGGs
WITHOUT TELLING ME!?!... Insert CD 1. Re-rip CD 1...

I'm pretty sure the CD ripping experience before that went pretty much
the same way.

That said, this experience *is* actually "as good as iTunes" if you
don't have an iPod, since iTunes rips to AAC by default without warning you.

-- Dan

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Old 11-07-2008, 02:02 PM
Matthias Clasen
 
Default The desktop beyond F10

On Fri, 2008-11-07 at 10:40 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote:

>
> "Better Face Images" is one of the features. Diana worked on that before
> she left (http://www.isity.net/blog/?p=65), maybe we can leverage
> somehow her work, do a better selection from the collected images or
> star to collect a new batch. Leave us know it the Art Team can help with
> that.

We used to ship those images in a gdm-extra-faces subpackage.
I need to investigate what happened to that...

>
> There are also two related features, "Wallpaper" and "Backgrounds
> channel", for which I think the best way forward is to link them
> together, why struggle with an sub-optimal selection process (which, any
> way you make, will get some un-pleased) when we can offer everything
> with one click using RSS feeds.
> I don't like the part about randomly assigning an initial background,
> one think I learned from GNOME is that good defaults matter.

The basic premise here is that we think it may be better to treat
backgrounds as a 'personalization feature', not as a branding vehicle.
Since, after all, changing the background is one of the first things
many people do on a new device.

To make randomly assigning work, it is of course important that we have
a small set of equal-quality backgrounds to choose from (basically, each
of them needs to be a good default...)

> For the "Better Fonts" feature, it may not be what you envisioned, but
> we at the Art Team are actively asking for "artsy" fonts, things like
> Rufscript or Beteckna. We don't want those in the default install, but
> is handy to have them easy available.

Expanding the supply of available fonts is certainly great, artsy or
not...

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Old 11-07-2008, 02:05 PM
"Bill Peck"
 
Default The desktop beyond F10

On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 10:02 AM, Dan Winship <dwinship@redhat.com> wrote:
> Matthias Clasen wrote:
>> Comments and feedback welcome, either on this list or in the discussion
>> tabs.
>
>> Default CD ripper Make Rhythmbox as good as iTunes for CD import
>
> My last CD-ripping experience went like this: Insert CD 1. Rip CD 1.
> Insert CD 2. Rip CD 2. Insert CD 3. Rip CD 3. ... Rip CD 6. Plug in MP3
> player. Open the Music folder in Nautilus. Select the files to
> copy---GOD DAMN YOU RHYTHMBOX! WHY THE $@!^#@$%^#$% DID YOU OUTPUT .OGGs
> WITHOUT TELLING ME!?!... Insert CD 1. Re-rip CD 1...
>

So what should the default be? I personally rip everything as flac.

> I'm pretty sure the CD ripping experience before that went pretty much
> the same way.
>
> That said, this experience *is* actually "as good as iTunes" if you
> don't have an iPod, since iTunes rips to AAC by default without warning you.
>
> -- Dan
>
> --
> Fedora-desktop-list mailing list
> Fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list
>

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Old 11-07-2008, 04:54 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default The desktop beyond F10

On Fri, 2008-11-07 at 10:05 -0500, Bill Peck wrote:
> >> Default CD ripper Make Rhythmbox as good as iTunes for CD import
> >
> > My last CD-ripping experience went like this: Insert CD 1. Rip CD 1.
> > Insert CD 2. Rip CD 2. Insert CD 3. Rip CD 3. ... Rip CD 6. Plug in MP3
> > player. Open the Music folder in Nautilus. Select the files to
> > copy---GOD DAMN YOU RHYTHMBOX! WHY THE $@!^#@$%^#$% DID YOU OUTPUT .OGGs
> > WITHOUT TELLING ME!?!... Insert CD 1. Re-rip CD 1...
> >
>
> So what should the default be? I personally rip everything as flac.

The default should be what we can legally ship with, which isn't
mp3. .ogg is not a bad choice.

--
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom˛ is a feature!
identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating
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Old 11-07-2008, 05:25 PM
"William Jon McCann"
 
Default The desktop beyond F10

Hey,

On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 10:02 AM, Dan Winship <dwinship@redhat.com> wrote:
> Matthias Clasen wrote:
>> Comments and feedback welcome, either on this list or in the discussion
>> tabs.
>
>> Default CD ripper Make Rhythmbox as good as iTunes for CD import
>
> My last CD-ripping experience went like this: Insert CD 1. Rip CD 1.
> Insert CD 2. Rip CD 2. Insert CD 3. Rip CD 3. ... Rip CD 6. Plug in MP3
> player. Open the Music folder in Nautilus. Select the files to
> copy---GOD DAMN YOU RHYTHMBOX! WHY THE $@!^#@$%^#$% DID YOU OUTPUT .OGGs
> WITHOUT TELLING ME!?!... Insert CD 1. Re-rip CD 1...
>
> I'm pretty sure the CD ripping experience before that went pretty much
> the same way.
>
> That said, this experience *is* actually "as good as iTunes" if you
> don't have an iPod, since iTunes rips to AAC by default without warning you.

Because when Rhythmbox transfers files to your device it transcodes
them from ogg or flac into whatever format your player supports.

We don't want nautilus to be the sync-with-music-player experience.

Jon

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Old 11-07-2008, 07:15 PM
Stewart Adam
 
Default The desktop beyond F10

On 11/7/08 10:02 AM, Dan Winship wrote:

Matthias Clasen wrote:

Comments and feedback welcome, either on this list or in the discussion
tabs.



Default CD ripper Make Rhythmbox as good as iTunes for CD import


My last CD-ripping experience went like this: Insert CD 1. Rip CD 1.
Insert CD 2. Rip CD 2. Insert CD 3. Rip CD 3. ... Rip CD 6. Plug in MP3
player. Open the Music folder in Nautilus. Select the files to
copy---GOD DAMN YOU RHYTHMBOX! WHY THE $@!^#@$%^#$% DID YOU OUTPUT .OGGs
WITHOUT TELLING ME!?!... Insert CD 1. Re-rip CD 1...

I'm pretty sure the CD ripping experience before that went pretty much
the same way.

That said, this experience *is* actually "as good as iTunes" if you
don't have an iPod, since iTunes rips to AAC by default without warning you.

-- Dan

Having ogg be default is fine IMHO, but it would be great to add more
options to the rip preferences. For example, I still prefer ripping to wav
and then using an audio converter to convert to FLAC since there's no way
for me to set the flac compression level (or I missed it).


In the case of lossy codecs, I think a simple drop-down selection for
bitrate and checkbutton for CBR/VBR would make a lot of people happy.


Stewart

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Old 11-10-2008, 02:51 PM
Dan Winship
 
Default The desktop beyond F10

Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-11-07 at 10:05 -0500, Bill Peck wrote:
>>>> Default CD ripper Make Rhythmbox as good as iTunes for CD import
>>> My last CD-ripping experience went like this: Insert CD 1. Rip CD 1.
>>> Insert CD 2. Rip CD 2. Insert CD 3. Rip CD 3. ... Rip CD 6. Plug in MP3
>>> player. Open the Music folder in Nautilus. Select the files to
>>> copy---GOD DAMN YOU RHYTHMBOX! WHY THE $@!^#@$%^#$% DID YOU OUTPUT .OGGs
>>> WITHOUT TELLING ME!?!... Insert CD 1. Re-rip CD 1...
>>>
>> So what should the default be? I personally rip everything as flac.
>
> The default should be what we can legally ship with, which isn't
> mp3. .ogg is not a bad choice.

The overriding goal is to help the user do the stuff they want to do. If
we can't do that for legal reasons, then "helping the user do stuff they
DON'T want to do" is not a reasonable fallback. (I realize that
.ogg-by-default *is* an ok choice for many people, so we're not
completely losing here.)

But am I wrong in believing that MP3 is the de facto standard compressed
audio format? And that many people have devices that play MP3s but not
oggs? And that when people say "rip", it's generally assumed they mean
"rip to mp3" unless they explicitly name another file format?

If so, then Rhythmbox (or actually, Sound Juicer, right?) has bad
confusing UI, because it doesn't support MP3, but it never acknowledges
this fact anywhere, leaving the user to assume that it does. (Even I get
confused, and I *know* Fedora can't ship MP3 support.)

If our use cases for the "Default CD ripper" feature assume that some
people are going to want to rip to MP3 (which I assume they will), and
our CD ripping tool is not going to support MP3 (which I assume it
won't), then the UI ought to be a lot more explicit about this, and make
sure that the user isn't going to waste their time ripping CDs into a
format they can't use.

-- Dan

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Old 11-10-2008, 03:25 PM
Nicu Buculei
 
Default The desktop beyond F10

Dan Winship wrote:

But am I wrong in believing that MP3 is the de facto standard compressed
audio format? And that many people have devices that play MP3s but not
oggs? And that when people say "rip", it's generally assumed they mean
"rip to mp3" unless they explicitly name another file format?


Some years ago I used to use grip, which has two buttons, one for "rip"
and another for "rip + encode". Yes, at the very first use I was
confused a bit that "rip" produced a .wav file, but I understood the
process.



If so, then Rhythmbox (or actually, Sound Juicer, right?) has bad
confusing UI, because it doesn't support MP3, but it never acknowledges
this fact anywhere, leaving the user to assume that it does. (Even I get
confused, and I *know* Fedora can't ship MP3 support.)


But Sound Juicer does support MP3. Not out-of-the-box, but after the
first step I do after any install.



If our use cases for the "Default CD ripper" feature assume that some
people are going to want to rip to MP3 (which I assume they will), and
our CD ripping tool is not going to support MP3 (which I assume it
won't), then the UI ought to be a lot more explicit about this, and make
sure that the user isn't going to waste their time ripping CDs into a
format they can't use.


It would be interesting to gather some hard data about how many people
rip to mp3, ogg, flac and wav, but I suspect we don't have a clean way
to get this data.


--
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com
Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/
Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org
my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro

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