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Old 10-27-2008, 10:44 AM
"Paul W. Frields"
 
Default Browser mode for nautilus

On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 12:16 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote:
> Hi,
> I have seen this discussed in Fedora marketing but not here or on the
> devel lists. On Fedora marketing list people agreed that this should
> be enabled:
> gconftool-2 --type boolean --set
> /apps/nautilus/preferences/always_use_browser true
>
> Should I post this as a feature request or is it enough just to post
> it here in this mailing list?

If I recall correctly this was discussed to death in the GNOME upstream
back when it was changed many, many moons ago. You can feel free to
take this request to the upstream rather than here in Fedora.

If I were you, though, I wouldn't hold my breath about it. Many people,
including myself, have become very accustomed to the spatial browser and
its benefits, and would complain just as much if it were reverted.

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Old 10-27-2008, 01:25 PM
David Zeuthen
 
Default Browser mode for nautilus

On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 07:44 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> If I recall correctly this was discussed to death in the GNOME upstream
> back when it was changed many, many moons ago. You can feel free to
> take this request to the upstream rather than here in Fedora.

FWIW, it was also recently discussed at the GNOME UI hackfest in Boston

http://live.gnome.org/Boston2008/GUIHackfest

with some real data (e.g. City of Largo of presentation) suggesting that
spatial might not be the best default.

You are of course correct that we should normally follow what upstream
do; however occasionally we do change some defaults (for better or
worse). In this case, I don't think it's clear, a lot of data (the Largo
presentation, other distros, just observing users) might suggest the
current default is not the best one. I don't know.

Also, this begs the question about how we make decisions what our
product looks like. There are many possible answers to that and it
always depend on the circumstances; some people suggest voting (!),
other suggests following upstream, sometimes a group of people in some
committee makes a decision (packaging guidelines; FESCO overrides) and
then there's the package-maintainer-gets-to-decide fiefdom (like our
firewall maintainer deciding to break .local name resolution (in F9 at
least) because of "security" "concerns").

It seems the latter one is how Fedora works; with most maintainers
opting to follow upstream. For most packages this is probably fine but
for things like the desktop (and user experience in general) it's a
little different.

FWIW, I personally don't think any of these are good answers. Often I
think it would be useful if we had a good dictator to tell us what to do
(in the Linus is the dictator of the kernel way). I don't know. But I
think it's a bit broken (not totally though) how things currently work,
I think if we changed things a bit we might be creating a better product
and we might avoid a lot of the harsh flame wars and exchanges we see on
the lists these days. These happens primarily because of some inability
to make decisions.

Anyway, no real answers here, only more questions; hopefully food for
thought.

> If I were you, though, I wouldn't hold my breath about it. Many people,
> including myself, have become very accustomed to the spatial browser and
> its benefits, and would complain just as much if it were reverted.

Take it easy, someone just proposed changing the default; I think it's
not too much work for you to toggle a single checkbox on a new install.
That's what people not using spatial mode (a significant amount
including myself) does anyway.

David


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Old 10-27-2008, 02:45 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default Browser mode for nautilus

On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 10:25 -0400, David Zeuthen wrote:
>
> FWIW, I personally don't think any of these are good answers. Often I
> think it would be useful if we had a good dictator to tell us what to do
> (in the Linus is the dictator of the kernel way).

It could work this way, at least for areas of influence. The Desktop
SIG has essentially been given carte blanche over the (GNOME) Desktop
experience, with the (minor/major) exception of the artwork. If the SIG
so decides, they can elect or appoint said dictator who can make all
these decisions. That's nearly how the release engineering team works,
I'm a dictator however I do have people vote on issues mostly so that I
can make sure that we've discussed things to a reasonable majority
opinion before I dictate. It's not so much as voting as opinion
polling.

--
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Old 10-27-2008, 03:00 PM
"Paul W. Frields"
 
Default Browser mode for nautilus

On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 10:25 -0400, David Zeuthen wrote:
> On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 07:44 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
> > If I recall correctly this was discussed to death in the GNOME upstream
> > back when it was changed many, many moons ago. You can feel free to
> > take this request to the upstream rather than here in Fedora.
>
> FWIW, it was also recently discussed at the GNOME UI hackfest in Boston
>
> http://live.gnome.org/Boston2008/GUIHackfest
>
> with some real data (e.g. City of Largo of presentation) suggesting that
> spatial might not be the best default.

This is interesting, thanks.

> You are of course correct that we should normally follow what upstream
> do; however occasionally we do change some defaults (for better or
> worse). In this case, I don't think it's clear, a lot of data (the Largo
> presentation, other distros, just observing users) might suggest the
> current default is not the best one. I don't know.

I don't either -- I presume that the GNOME community makes these choices
based on some guiding principles of design and usability. I don't claim
to know what those are, though. If they

> Also, this begs the question about how we make decisions what our
> product looks like. There are many possible answers to that and it
> always depend on the circumstances; some people suggest voting (!),
> other suggests following upstream, sometimes a group of people in some
> committee makes a decision (packaging guidelines; FESCO overrides) and
> then there's the package-maintainer-gets-to-decide fiefdom (like our
> firewall maintainer deciding to break .local name resolution (in F9 at
> least) because of "security" "concerns").
>
> It seems the latter one is how Fedora works; with most maintainers
> opting to follow upstream.

Which, not coincidentally, is in agreement with Fedora's overall
objectives. In cases where groups are involved, we usually try to
achieve consensus as the easiest way to make decisions, resorting to
voting when that doesn't work, or when the decision-making group is
itself a representative group.

> For most packages this is probably fine but
> for things like the desktop (and user experience in general) it's a
> little different.
>
> FWIW, I personally don't think any of these are good answers. Often I
> think it would be useful if we had a good dictator to tell us what to do
> (in the Linus is the dictator of the kernel way).

Who exactly do you believe should be that dictator?

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Old 10-27-2008, 03:18 PM
Ray Strode
 
Default Browser mode for nautilus

Hi,

You are of course correct that we should normally follow what upstream
do; however occasionally we do change some defaults (for better or
worse). In this case, I don't think it's clear, a lot of data (the Largo
presentation, other distros, just observing users) might suggest the
current default is not the best one. I don't know
This isn't the sort of thing we should diverge from upstream on. If it
makes sense to change it for Fedora, we should lobby to get it changed
upstream as well.


This case in particular is silly, since Alex (who wrote spatial mode) is
upstream GNOME and downstream Fedora.


--Ray


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Old 10-27-2008, 03:26 PM
Nicu Buculei
 
Default Browser mode for nautilus

Paul W. Frields wrote:

On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 10:25 -0400, David Zeuthen wrote:


FWIW, I personally don't think any of these are good answers. Often I
think it would be useful if we had a good dictator to tell us what to do
(in the Linus is the dictator of the kernel way).


Who exactly do you believe should be that dictator?


I think many of us remember the times when we had Seth Nickell and Havoc
talking "visionary" things about the desktop (even if they weren't
exactly "dictators"), it was very useful to see the direction we are
going to... any direction.
Currently the appearance is we do not have any direction beside "follow
upstream", but the upstream (GNOME) pretty much lack the direction also
(Havoc and Seth were "upstream").


So yes, I would pretty much like to see someone taking leadership and
defining a direction, a "vision". And if he is coherent and active, we
may be glad to call him our "dictator".


--
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Old 10-27-2008, 03:43 PM
Max Spevack
 
Default Browser mode for nautilus

On Mon, 27 Oct 2008, Paul W. Frields wrote:

For most packages this is probably fine but for things like the
desktop (and user experience in general) it's a little different.


FWIW, I personally don't think any of these are good answers. Often I
think it would be useful if we had a good dictator to tell us what to
do (in the Linus is the dictator of the kernel way).


Who exactly do you believe should be that dictator?


Possible answers (though not necessarily an exhaustive list):

(1) Desktop SIG, which jrb and any number of the folks who work for jrb
are free to participate in. Most SIGs have someone who is looked to as
the leader, and part of that leadership is to make the tough decision.


(2) From the Red Hat side, jrb is the manager of the desktop team, and
while I have not idea how he runs his team, I would think that if you
need a dictatorial-type of decision to be made, you could always just
ask your boss to make it.


(3) Ultimately for anything involving Fedora, it is in the job
description of the Fedora Project Leader to be the benevolent dictator.
This responsibility is delegated down to the Fedora Board (and in the
cases relevant to this list) also to the Desktop SIG and Artwork Team.
But none of that changes the fact that *Red Hat* pays the Fedora Project
Leader to be the benevolent dictator for anything that carries the
Fedora brand.


(4) Package maintainers, as already stated, who can choose to default to
upstream if they so desire.


The key to successfully managing the many parallel and overlapping
threads of Fedora is not to have DEMOCRACY -- with a few exceptions, I
generally agree with davidz's general theme of "voting on stuff isn't
the right way to make a decision" -- but to have a decision-making
process and chain of command identified so that decisions ultimately do
get made.


Then if a certain person dislikes a decision, they should know (a) WHY
that decision was made, and (b) WHO made that decision.


Bonus points for the decision makers stating their rationale in public,
and for having open discussions leading up to the decision, depending on
how important or complicated the decision is.


--Max

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Old 10-27-2008, 03:46 PM
Max Spevack
 
Default Browser mode for nautilus

On Mon, 27 Oct 2008, Max Spevack wrote:

Bonus points for the decision makers stating their rationale in
public, and for having open discussions leading up to the decision,
depending on how important or complicated the decision is.


After reading Nicu's reply, I also want to add that my analysis does not
touch on any questions of decision-making or leadership in the upstream
GNOME project that could then filter down into Fedora to package
maintainers or the Desktop SIG. As I do not actively participate in the
upstream GNOME community, I am not in a place to comment on how it
functions.


--Max

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Old 10-27-2008, 03:58 PM
David Zeuthen
 
Default Browser mode for nautilus

On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 12:18 -0400, Ray Strode wrote:
> This case in particular is silly, since Alex (who wrote spatial mode) is
> upstream GNOME and downstream Fedora.

You are missing the point that the sums of the bits (our product) is
larger than the bits itself (each package). I posited in my original
mail that we can create a better product if we have a dictator (or group
of dictators) that makes decisions. In other words, we need to move away
from the model where every package maintainer maintains his own fiefdom.
It's counter productive to the point that it cripples the product (e.g.
the firewall example I gave earlier).

(FWIW, in this particular case I see little chance of us actually
switching to browser mode. E.g. with the dictator candidates I have in
mind, I don't see it happening. I guess I'm just one of them odd-ball
browser mode persons.)

> This isn't the sort of thing we should diverge from upstream on. If
> it makes sense to change it for Fedora, we should lobby to get it
> changed upstream as well.

Sure. But as I outlined in my original mail this is not always possible.
But it's a nice goal.

David


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Old 10-27-2008, 04:58 PM
"Valent Turkovic"
 
Default Browser mode for nautilus

2008/10/27 Paul W. Frields <stickster@gmail.com>:
> On Mon, 2008-10-27 at 12:16 +0100, Valent Turkovic wrote:
>> Hi,
>> I have seen this discussed in Fedora marketing but not here or on the
>> devel lists. On Fedora marketing list people agreed that this should
>> be enabled:
>> gconftool-2 --type boolean --set
>> /apps/nautilus/preferences/always_use_browser true
>>
>> Should I post this as a feature request or is it enough just to post
>> it here in this mailing list?
>
> If I recall correctly this was discussed to death in the GNOME upstream
> back when it was changed many, many moons ago. You can feel free to
> take this request to the upstream rather than here in Fedora.
>
> If I were you, though, I wouldn't hold my breath about it. Many people,
> including myself, have become very accustomed to the spatial browser and
> its benefits, and would complain just as much if it were reverted.
>
> --
> Paul W. Frields
> gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
> http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
> irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
>
> --
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> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list
>


I guess so, that is why I wrote a simple blog post and got lots of
answers (yours including), thanks. And you are right. If you can take
responses to that blog post as some sort of pool it is probably 50/50.

http://snipurl.com/4qzf3 [kernelreloaded_blog385_com]

Cheers,
Valent.

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