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Old 09-23-2008, 09:53 PM
Bill Nottingham
 
Default Echo vs the destkop

When we approved Echo as the default icon theme for F10, I was under the
assumption that this was already more or less known as a feature to the
Desktop group, and they were OK with the coverage provided and the
experience given. Is that the case?

Looking at the desktop now (beta), I see:

- at least three different icon perspectives in the stock menus
(echo, 'stock', bluecurve)
- nearly all 'upstream' gnome apps using non-echo style icons
- an immediate disconnect between the perspective of the stock
icons and the perspective of the main menu logo

It also appears to me that the Echo icons scale to menu size I'm
using (24) much worse than the prior icons.

Are we planning to address these issues, either by increasing the
Echo icon coverage, or changing various apps to point to system
icons provided by Echo?

Bill

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Old 09-23-2008, 09:53 PM
Bill Nottingham
 
Default Echo vs the destkop

When we approved Echo as the default icon theme for F10, I was under the
assumption that this was already more or less known as a feature to the
Desktop group, and they were OK with the coverage provided and the
experience given. Is that the case?

Looking at the desktop now (beta), I see:

- at least three different icon perspectives in the stock menus
(echo, 'stock', bluecurve)
- nearly all 'upstream' gnome apps using non-echo style icons
- an immediate disconnect between the perspective of the stock
icons and the perspective of the main menu logo

It also appears to me that the Echo icons scale to menu size I'm
using (24) much worse than the prior icons.

Are we planning to address these issues, either by increasing the
Echo icon coverage, or changing various apps to point to system
icons provided by Echo?

Bill

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Old 09-23-2008, 10:27 PM
"William Jon McCann"
 
Default Echo vs the destkop

Hi Bill,

On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Bill Nottingham <notting@redhat.com> wrote:
> When we approved Echo as the default icon theme for F10, I was under the
> assumption that this was already more or less known as a feature to the
> Desktop group, and they were OK with the coverage provided and the
> experience given. Is that the case?

No.

> Looking at the desktop now (beta), I see:
>
> - at least three different icon perspectives in the stock menus
> (echo, 'stock', bluecurve)
> - nearly all 'upstream' gnome apps using non-echo style icons
> - an immediate disconnect between the perspective of the stock
> icons and the perspective of the main menu logo
>
> It also appears to me that the Echo icons scale to menu size I'm
> using (24) much worse than the prior icons.
>
> Are we planning to address these issues, either by increasing the
> Echo icon coverage, or changing various apps to point to system
> icons provided by Echo?

I strongly disagree with the decision to use the Echo icon theme. For
one, there is simply not enough time before Fedora 10 to fix the
problems that you point out. There is also the fact that the quality
of the artwork is noticeably lower than the upstream GNOME and Tango
icon themes.

In my opinion, we should:
1. Not use the Echo icons for Fedora 10
2. Encourage Fedora artists to become involved with the upstream GNOME
and Tango artist communities

Thanks,
Jon

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Old 09-23-2008, 10:27 PM
"William Jon McCann"
 
Default Echo vs the destkop

Hi Bill,

On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Bill Nottingham <notting@redhat.com> wrote:
> When we approved Echo as the default icon theme for F10, I was under the
> assumption that this was already more or less known as a feature to the
> Desktop group, and they were OK with the coverage provided and the
> experience given. Is that the case?

No.

> Looking at the desktop now (beta), I see:
>
> - at least three different icon perspectives in the stock menus
> (echo, 'stock', bluecurve)
> - nearly all 'upstream' gnome apps using non-echo style icons
> - an immediate disconnect between the perspective of the stock
> icons and the perspective of the main menu logo
>
> It also appears to me that the Echo icons scale to menu size I'm
> using (24) much worse than the prior icons.
>
> Are we planning to address these issues, either by increasing the
> Echo icon coverage, or changing various apps to point to system
> icons provided by Echo?

I strongly disagree with the decision to use the Echo icon theme. For
one, there is simply not enough time before Fedora 10 to fix the
problems that you point out. There is also the fact that the quality
of the artwork is noticeably lower than the upstream GNOME and Tango
icon themes.

In my opinion, we should:
1. Not use the Echo icons for Fedora 10
2. Encourage Fedora artists to become involved with the upstream GNOME
and Tango artist communities

Thanks,
Jon

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Old 09-23-2008, 10:47 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default Echo vs the destkop

William Jon McCann wrote:

Hi Bill,

On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Bill Nottingham <notting@redhat.com> wrote:

When we approved Echo as the default icon theme for F10, I was under the
assumption that this was already more or less known as a feature to the
Desktop group, and they were OK with the coverage provided and the
experience given. Is that the case?


No.


I had thought Matthias volunteered to serve as the Desktop team
representative. He had outlined a plan here which is what the Echo folks
have been following:


https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-September/msg00044.html

I also was under the understanding that Echo was set as the default in
rawhide to enable the folks working on it a chance to get fuller
coverage, and that if it was deemed to not have appropriate coverage, it
would be pulled. But I'm not directly involved in any of that, I think
these were things brought up in the FESCO meeting about the Echo feature.



Looking at the desktop now (beta), I see:

- at least three different icon perspectives in the stock menus
(echo, 'stock', bluecurve)
- nearly all 'upstream' gnome apps using non-echo style icons
- an immediate disconnect between the perspective of the stock
icons and the perspective of the main menu logo

It also appears to me that the Echo icons scale to menu size I'm
using (24) much worse than the prior icons.

Are we planning to address these issues, either by increasing the
Echo icon coverage, or changing various apps to point to system
icons provided by Echo?


I strongly disagree with the decision to use the Echo icon theme. For
one, there is simply not enough time before Fedora 10 to fix the
problems that you point out. There is also the fact that the quality
of the artwork is noticeably lower than the upstream GNOME and Tango
icon themes.


The Echo artists have been working hard at improving the coverage. If it
is not there in time for the preview release, I presume they would try
again for F11. Martin and Luya and perhaps FESCO can probably speak more
and better to this.


~m

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Old 09-23-2008, 11:03 PM
Matthias Clasen
 
Default Echo vs the destkop

On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 18:47 -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:

> I had thought Matthias volunteered to serve as the Desktop team
> representative. He had outlined a plan here which is what the Echo folks
> have been following:
>
> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-September/msg00044.html

I'm the last desktop team member on fedora-art-list, but I'm not a
representative, and I have no way to reconcile the wildly varying
opinions inside the desktop team when it comes to style and quality of
the default icon theme.



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Old 09-23-2008, 11:03 PM
Matthias Clasen
 
Default Echo vs the destkop

On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 18:47 -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:

> I had thought Matthias volunteered to serve as the Desktop team
> representative. He had outlined a plan here which is what the Echo folks
> have been following:
>
> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-September/msg00044.html

I'm the last desktop team member on fedora-art-list, but I'm not a
representative, and I have no way to reconcile the wildly varying
opinions inside the desktop team when it comes to style and quality of
the default icon theme.



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Old 09-23-2008, 11:31 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default Echo vs the destkop

Matthias Clasen wrote:

On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 18:47 -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:

I had thought Matthias volunteered to serve as the Desktop team
representative. He had outlined a plan here which is what the Echo folks
have been following:


https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-September/msg00044.html


I'm the last desktop team member on fedora-art-list, but I'm not a
representative, and I have no way to reconcile the wildly varying
opinions inside the desktop team when it comes to style and quality of
the default icon theme.


Oh okay, sorry for misunderstanding.

~m

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Old 09-24-2008, 12:40 AM
Luya Tshimbalanga
 
Default Echo vs the destkop

William Jon McCann a écrit*:

Hi Bill,

On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Bill Nottingham <notting@redhat.com> wrote:


When we approved Echo as the default icon theme for F10, I was under the
assumption that this was already more or less known as a feature to the
Desktop group, and they were OK with the coverage provided and the
experience given. Is that the case?



No.



I strongly disagree with the decision to use the Echo icon theme. For
one, there is simply not enough time before Fedora 10 to fix the
problems that you point out. There is also the fact that the quality
of the artwork is noticeably lower than the upstream GNOME and Tango
icon themes.



See the baseset[1]. Also there are issue on system->Administration
that neither gnome nor

tango addressed that were done on Echo theme.


In my opinion, we should:
1. Not use the Echo icons for Fedora 10
2. Encourage Fedora artists to become involved with the upstream GNOME
and Tango artist communities


The aim was to get ready before the preview release version will be
out. With the given time, we (particulary Martin and I) work hard
despite the lack of manpower and the calling for assistance Fesco asks
to fix essential icons

which are currently addressed on fedorahosted.org. Latest snapshot are
available on git repostory. Need to remind* Gnome/Tango artists are
keeping eyes on on Echo.



Luya



References:

----------------

[1] https://fedorahosted.org/echo-icon-theme/wiki/ToDo/BaseSet





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Old 09-24-2008, 01:22 AM
Luya Tshimbalanga
 
Default Echo vs the destkop

Bill Nottingham a écrit :
> Looking at the desktop now (beta), I see:
>
> - at least three different icon perspectives in the stock menus
> (echo, 'stock', bluecurve)
>
I think Bluecurve mix are desktop bug. Current Fedora default theme used
Bluecurve from some applications, same issue occurs on all icons theme.
> - nearly all 'upstream' gnome apps using non-echo style icons
>
On Todo list.
> - an immediate disconnect between the perspective of the stock
> icons and the perspective of the main menu logo
>
Problem is Fedora logo cannot be modified according to guideline thus
perspective cannot be used.
> It also appears to me that the Echo icons scale to menu size I'm
> using (24) much worse than the prior icons.
>
They were derived the old method before new techniques[1](echo-artist
scripts derived from jimmac one canvas template[2]) were applied recently.
> Are we planning to address these issues, either by increasing the
> Echo icon coverage, or changing various apps to point to system
> icons provided by Echo?
>
For the former, it can be possible as long more people participate. For
the latter, upstream gnome can be "echofied" following the guideline[3].

Luya

References:
----------------
[1] https://fedorahosted.org/echo-icon-theme/wiki/AddingNewIconSet
[2] http://pastebin.ca/1071599
[3] https://fedorahosted.org/echo-icon-theme/wiki/Guidelines


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