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Old 12-04-2007, 02:07 AM
Jonathan Blandford
 
Default Making the Live CD slicker

Hey,

Having just taken a look at the live CD, here are a couple of specific
changes that would make that experience better.

- The initial gdm screen is a bit of a hack. The message that you can
click on the Fedora feels ugly. If we must have the GDM screen for
keyboard or language, we might want to go through firstboot or
something.

- While signing up for a wireless network, it gnome-keyring prompts me
for a keyring password.

- nautilus shows the Live CD on the desktop, and lets you try to
eject/unmount it.

- Just as a minor annoyance, not all the default applications are
installed (dasher is missing)

Any other suggestions?

Thanks,
-Jonathan

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Old 12-04-2007, 02:34 AM
Matthias Clasen
 
Default Making the Live CD slicker

On Mon, 2007-12-03 at 22:07 -0500, Jonathan Blandford wrote:
> Hey,
>
> Having just taken a look at the live CD, here are a couple of specific
> changes that would make that experience better.
>
> - The initial gdm screen is a bit of a hack. The message that you can
> click on the Fedora feels ugly. If we must have the GDM screen for
> keyboard or language, we might want to go through firstboot or
> something.
>
> - While signing up for a wireless network, it gnome-keyring prompts me
> for a keyring password.
>
> - nautilus shows the Live CD on the desktop, and lets you try to
> eject/unmount it.
>
> - Just as a minor annoyance, not all the default applications are
> installed (dasher is missing)
>
> Any other suggestions?
>

What you mentioned earlier (but forgot to add to this email,
apparently): the live cd contains a number of system-config utilities
that we would rather not see in the menus of a polished desktop spin,
such as system-config-rootpassword. Most of them are dragged in by
anaconda/firstboot.

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Old 12-04-2007, 02:12 PM
David Zeuthen
 
Default Making the Live CD slicker

On Mon, 2007-12-03 at 22:07 -0500, Jonathan Blandford wrote:
> Hey,
>
> Having just taken a look at the live CD, here are a couple of specific
> changes that would make that experience better.

Great, this is exactly what we need. The Live CD is pretty slick but
there's still a lot of low hanging fruit...

> - The initial gdm screen is a bit of a hack. The message that you can
> click on the Fedora feels ugly. If we must have the GDM screen for
> keyboard or language, we might want to go through firstboot or
> something.

Euw, gods no. Please. I don't want to click many times on a task driven
interface just to get started whenever I boot the live CD. Perhaps if
you could qualify a bit more why the gdm screen "is a bit of a hack" it
would be useful.

Either way, gdm _needs_ this functionality (think shared computer with
users having varying language preferences); punting this to Fedora
specific tools is in my view a much greater hack. This is the old
mantra: do the work upstream etc. etc.

Another reason for gdm is if you ship a live image with both GNOME and
KDE. Then you'd have several faces to click on.

The alternative is to have language/keyboard selection in the boot
loader (isolinux); to be honest I prefer that to firstboot any day of
the week. As an added bonus it means that we would booth straight into
the desktop without gdm. Still, I think gdm is a much much better
solution.

> - While signing up for a wireless network, it gnome-keyring prompts me
> for a keyring password.

This is a good point, maybe the live cd initscript should set a blank
password for the fedora users keyring. Even better, perhaps the
gnome-keyring bits can detect a blank password (probably harder since it
would require to init the pam stack and check the conversation is
empty).

> - nautilus shows the Live CD on the desktop, and lets you try to
> eject/unmount it.

By design. The idea is that the Live CD itself can contain promo /
information / foreign apps that is also visible when mounting it on
foreign OS's (Windows, Macs). We just haven't used this feature (we
should).

Further, having the icon is a good indicator for people they're running
a live OS. Maybe the eject/unmount should be greyed out; then again, you
can't actually unmount/eject it; you are given an error message if you
try.

> - Just as a minor annoyance, not all the default applications are
> installed (dasher is missing)
>
> Any other suggestions?

Yes. Anaconda pulls in a lot of the system-config-* tools that are not
very useful neither on the live cd nor on the installed system. There's
also like three SELinux icons or something in the menus. All of them
really needs to go on the desktop live cd.

David


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Old 12-04-2007, 02:18 PM
Jeremy Katz
 
Default Making the Live CD slicker

On Mon, 2007-12-03 at 22:07 -0500, Jonathan Blandford wrote:
> - The initial gdm screen is a bit of a hack. The message that you can
> click on the Fedora feels ugly. If we must have the GDM screen for
> keyboard or language, we might want to go through firstboot or
> something.

GDM also gives us the benefit of being able to enable a11y. I don't
feel very strongly one way or the other, but davidz did at one point

> - While signing up for a wireless network, it gnome-keyring prompts me
> for a keyring password.

Once we have an ability to make changes that you've made (especially
including your home directory) persist by storing them to a USB stick or
similar, this will make more sense to be able to do probably. But the
dialog could use some love

> - nautilus shows the Live CD on the desktop, and lets you try to
> eject/unmount it.

I thought this got fixed at one point in hal

> - Just as a minor annoyance, not all the default applications are
> installed (dasher is missing)

dasher isn't a default app
[katzj@aglarond comps]$ grep dasher comps-f8.xml.in
<packagereq type="optional">dasher</packagereq>

Jeremy

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Old 12-04-2007, 02:19 PM
Jeremy Katz
 
Default Making the Live CD slicker

On Mon, 2007-12-03 at 22:34 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> What you mentioned earlier (but forgot to add to this email,
> apparently): the live cd contains a number of system-config utilities
> that we would rather not see in the menus of a polished desktop spin,
> such as system-config-rootpassword. Most of them are dragged in by
> anaconda/firstboot.

How do you propose that anaconda/firstboot have the functionality
without having to bring their own copy of tools in?

Jeremy

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Old 12-04-2007, 02:23 PM
David Zeuthen
 
Default Making the Live CD slicker

On Tue, 2007-12-04 at 10:19 -0500, Jeremy Katz wrote:
> On Mon, 2007-12-03 at 22:34 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> > What you mentioned earlier (but forgot to add to this email,
> > apparently): the live cd contains a number of system-config utilities
> > that we would rather not see in the menus of a polished desktop spin,
> > such as system-config-rootpassword. Most of them are dragged in by
> > anaconda/firstboot.
>
> How do you propose that anaconda/firstboot have the functionality
> without having to bring their own copy of tools in?

By using conditional dependencies. E.g. anaconda itself shouldn't pull
in system-config-keyboard on the live CD (the keyboard is assumed to
already be configured through gdm). However, for non-live-cd anaconda
use you probably want to pull it in and use it. That's fine.

In a similar fashion, anaconda/firstboot shouldn't automatically pull in
system-config-rootpassword. Because that's not needed for Live CD's that
are configured to not have a root password at all (Ubuntu, Mac OS X
style).

Does it make more sense now?

David


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Old 12-05-2007, 03:25 AM
Jonathan Blandford
 
Default Making the Live CD slicker

On Tue, 2007-12-04 at 10:12 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote:


> > - The initial gdm screen is a bit of a hack. The message that you can
> > click on the Fedora feels ugly. If we must have the GDM screen for
> > keyboard or language, we might want to go through firstboot or
> > something.
>
> Euw, gods no. Please. I don't want to click many times on a task driven
> interface just to get started whenever I boot the live CD. Perhaps if
> you could qualify a bit more why the gdm screen "is a bit of a hack" it
> would be useful.

Surely we can get it to once per task, no? Anyway, the current gdm
screen does feel like a hack to me. I think it's the "click on the
fedora icon to log in" aspect. It would be nice to see a screen that's
dedicated to the Live CD here.

> Either way, gdm _needs_ this functionality (think shared computer with
> users having varying language preferences); punting this to Fedora
> specific tools is in my view a much greater hack. This is the old
> mantra: do the work upstream etc. etc.

My fault. I was jumping ahead in my head to the brave new world of gdm
where firstboot and gdm are integrated, and language/accessibility are
part of the environment. I'm basically proposing an extra mode to GDM
just for that.

> Another reason for gdm is if you ship a live image with both GNOME and
> KDE. Then you'd have several faces to click on.

Hrm. Is that enough in the cards that we should design for it?

> > - While signing up for a wireless network, it gnome-keyring prompts me
> > for a keyring password.
>
> This is a good point, maybe the live cd initscript should set a blank
> password for the fedora users keyring. Even better, perhaps the
> gnome-keyring bits can detect a blank password (probably harder since it
> would require to init the pam stack and check the conversation is
> empty).

Yeah. You're bound to trigger that dialog one way or another during the
session.

> > - nautilus shows the Live CD on the desktop, and lets you try to
> > eject/unmount it.
>
> By design. The idea is that the Live CD itself can contain promo /
> information / foreign apps that is also visible when mounting it on
> foreign OS's (Windows, Macs). We just haven't used this feature (we
> should).

Can't we just have the promo appear as part of the image? Also, isn't
the user name on the f-u-s applet 'Fedora Live'? As implemented right
now, the CD is strange.

> Further, having the icon is a good indicator for people they're running
> a live OS. Maybe the eject/unmount should be greyed out; then again, you
> can't actually unmount/eject it; you are given an error message if you
> try.

I would vote to make it insensitive at a minimum.

> Yes. Anaconda pulls in a lot of the system-config-* tools that are not
> very useful neither on the live cd nor on the installed system. There's
> also like three SELinux icons or something in the menus. All of them
> really needs to go on the desktop live cd.

Agree, though I think you mean go _from_ the live CD. (-;

Thanks,
-Jonathan

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Old 12-05-2007, 03:25 AM
Jonathan Blandford
 
Default Making the Live CD slicker

On Tue, 2007-12-04 at 10:18 -0500, Jeremy Katz wrote:
> On Mon, 2007-12-03 at 22:07 -0500, Jonathan Blandford wrote:
> > - The initial gdm screen is a bit of a hack. The message that you can
> > click on the Fedora feels ugly. If we must have the GDM screen for
> > keyboard or language, we might want to go through firstboot or
> > something.
>
> GDM also gives us the benefit of being able to enable a11y. I don't
> feel very strongly one way or the other, but davidz did at one point

[ Commented in the other post ]

> > - While signing up for a wireless network, it gnome-keyring prompts me
> > for a keyring password.
>
> Once we have an ability to make changes that you've made (especially
> including your home directory) persist by storing them to a USB stick or
> similar, this will make more sense to be able to do probably. But the
> dialog could use some love

Oh, interesting. Are we going to password enable those USB sticks at
all?

> > - Just as a minor annoyance, not all the default applications are
> > installed (dasher is missing)
>
> dasher isn't a default app
> [katzj@aglarond comps]$ grep dasher comps-f8.xml.in
> <packagereq type="optional">dasher</packagereq>

It's selected as the default mobility device in the Preferred
applications dialog. As I said, minor annoyance.

Thanks,
-Jonathan

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Old 12-05-2007, 03:53 AM
Jeremy Katz
 
Default Making the Live CD slicker

On Tue, 2007-12-04 at 23:25 -0500, Jonathan Blandford wrote:
> On Tue, 2007-12-04 at 10:18 -0500, Jeremy Katz wrote:
> > On Mon, 2007-12-03 at 22:07 -0500, Jonathan Blandford wrote:
> > > - While signing up for a wireless network, it gnome-keyring prompts me
> > > for a keyring password.
> >
> > Once we have an ability to make changes that you've made (especially
> > including your home directory) persist by storing them to a USB stick or
> > similar, this will make more sense to be able to do probably. But the
> > dialog could use some love
>
> Oh, interesting. Are we going to password enable those USB sticks at
> all?

It's definitely something that should be an option. Exactly how
persistence is going to work is still a bit hand-wavy, unfortunately as
all the options kind of suck :-/

> > > - Just as a minor annoyance, not all the default applications are
> > > installed (dasher is missing)
> >
> > dasher isn't a default app
> > [katzj@aglarond comps]$ grep dasher comps-f8.xml.in
> > <packagereq type="optional">dasher</packagereq>
>
> It's selected as the default mobility device in the Preferred
> applications dialog. As I said, minor annoyance.

Then we should install it by default! :-) Committed the appropriate
comps change

Jeremy

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