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-   -   Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective (http://www.linux-archive.org/fedora-design-team/674127-fedora-grub2-boot-menu-design-perspective.html)

Elad Alfassa 06-18-2012 03:07 PM

Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective
 
refer to this thread in -devel: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-June/168712.html

As I understand, by design, we wanted the older kernels to appear in the "Advanced options" menu, but right now, it breaks every time you run a kernel update.

Also, the string Fedora Linux is kinda wrong, cause the OS is called Fedora.
It should be something like Fedora (with Linux kernel version here).

What is the stand of the design team on this?

--
-Elad Alfassa.


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Martin Sourada 06-18-2012 09:52 PM

Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective
 
Hi Elad,

On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 18:07:59 +0300
Elad Alfassa wrote:

> refer to this thread in -devel:
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-June/168712.html
>
> As I understand, by design, we wanted the older kernels to appear in
> the "Advanced options" menu, but right now, it breaks every time you
> run a kernel update.
> Also, the string Fedora Linux is kinda wrong, cause the OS is called
> Fedora.
> It should be something like Fedora (with Linux *kernel version here*).
>
> What is the stand of the design team on this?
>

first of all, I do *not* speak for the design team, just stating my
opinion.

The intended design is probably best what we can have but,
* Given the fedora target audience, it's not uncommon to have multiple
fedoras installed, so it would be good if the items looked like
Fedora $REL_VER$ $REL_NAME$ (or without the release name).
* All kernels should be in subdirectory. That the current kernel
updates break the intended setup (as set-up in /etc) is obviously
incorrect and should be fixed. Both ways (submenus or direct menu)
are better than current state of things.
* I do not seem to see any theme, even though there's obviously the
beefy-miracle one installed. It's probably missing in configs
(/etc/grub.d/) though -- my issue, or a general one?

Cheers,
Martin
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Ryan Gauger 06-18-2012 10:16 PM

Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective
 
Isn’t this a bit ot? This is the design team, which is meant for design of Fedora (not the OS itself, but the theme, artwork, etc). I’m not over the team, or a mod, but I think this is ot, and is kind of strange seeing this in a design team... Thanks!
* * From:*Martin Sourada <martin.sourada@gmail.com>

Sent:*Monday, June 18, 2012 4:52:46 PM
To:*design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
Subject:*Re: [Design-team] Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective

*Hi Elad,



On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 18:07:59 +0300

Elad Alfassa wrote:



> refer to this thread in -devel:

> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-June/168712.html

>

> As I understand, by design, we wanted the older kernels to appear in

> the "Advanced options" menu, but right now, it breaks every time you

> run a kernel update.

> Also, the string Fedora Linux is kinda wrong, cause the OS is called

> Fedora.

> It should be something like Fedora (with Linux *kernel version here*).

>

> What is the stand of the design team on this?

>



first of all, I do *not* speak for the design team, just stating my

opinion.



The intended design is probably best what we can have but,

** Given the fedora target audience, it's not uncommon to have multiple

* fedoras installed, so it would be good if the items looked like

* Fedora $REL_VER$ $REL_NAME$ (or without the release name).

** All kernels should be in subdirectory. That the current kernel

* updates break the intended setup (as set-up in /etc) is obviously

* incorrect and should be fixed. Both ways (submenus or direct menu)

* are better than current state of things.

** I do not seem to see any theme, even though there's obviously the

* beefy-miracle one installed. It's probably missing in configs

* (/etc/grub.d/) though -- my issue, or a general one?



Cheers,

Martin


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Elad Alfassa 06-18-2012 10:24 PM

Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective
 
On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 1:16 AM, Ryan Gauger <rtgkid@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Isn’t this a bit ot? This is the design team, which is meant for design of
> Fedora (not the OS itself, but the theme, artwork, etc). I’m not over the
> team, or a mod, but I think this is ot, and is kind of strange seeing this
> in a design team... Thanks!
We design the OS, that includes artwork and UX.
>
>
> From:*Martin Sourada <martin.sourada@gmail.com>
> Sent:*Monday, June 18, 2012 4:52:46 PM
> To:*design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
> Subject:*Re: [Design-team] Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective
>
> Hi Elad,
>
> On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 18:07:59 +0300
> Elad Alfassa wrote:
>
> > refer to this thread in -devel:
> > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-June/168712.html
> >
> > As I understand, by design, we wanted the older kernels to appear in
> > the "Advanced options" menu, but right now, it breaks every time you
> > run a kernel update.
> > Also, the string Fedora Linux is kinda wrong, cause the OS is called
> > Fedora.
> > It should be something like Fedora (with Linux *kernel version here*).
> >
> > What is the stand of the design team on this?
> >
>
> first of all, I do *not* speak for the design team, just stating my
> opinion.
>
> The intended design is probably best what we can have but,
> ** Given the fedora target audience, it's not uncommon to have multiple
> * fedoras installed, so it would be good if the items looked like
> * Fedora $REL_VER$ $REL_NAME$ (or without the release name).
Agreed.
> ** All kernels should be in subdirectory. That the current kernel
> * updates break the intended setup (as set-up in /etc) is obviously
> * incorrect and should be fixed. Both ways (submenus or direct menu)
> * are better than current state of things.
My thoughts as well
> ** I do not seem to see any theme, even though there's obviously the
> * beefy-miracle one installed. It's probably missing in configs
> * (/etc/grub.d/) though -- my issue, or a general one?
The theme was disabled cause apparently it caused performance issues
on lower-end computers :(
you can enable it by adding this line
GRUB_THEME=/boot/grub2/themes/system/theme.txt
to the file /etc/default/grub
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
> _______________________________________________
> design-team mailing list
> design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
>
> _______________________________________________
> design-team mailing list
> design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team




--
-Elad Alfassa.
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https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team

Mirn Duffy 06-19-2012 07:21 AM

Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective
 
Hi Elad,

On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 18:07 +0300, Elad Alfassa wrote:
> refer to this thread in -devel:
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-June/168712.html
>
> As I understand, by design, we wanted the older kernels to appear in
> the "Advanced options" menu, but right now, it breaks every time you
> run a kernel update.

Yeh, it definitely sounds like broken behavior. Maybe we should get
together with Josh Boyer and Peter Jones and see if we can't figure out
some way to have older kernels go under the submenu.

> Also, the string Fedora Linux is kinda wrong, cause the OS is called
> Fedora.
> It should be something like Fedora (with Linux kernel version here).

> What is the stand of the design team on this?

Well, fwiw, I think you're correct, it should just be 'Fedora' (Maybe
Fedora + $RELEASE_NUMBER) not 'Fedora Linux.' However, I think the
kernel versions should be in the submenu with, if I understand
correctly, the older kernels listed out, but the newest one should just
say Fedora. Is that too extreme?

~m


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Elad Alfassa 06-19-2012 08:07 AM

Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective
 
On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Mirn Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> Hi Elad,
>
> On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 18:07 +0300, Elad Alfassa wrote:
>> refer to this thread in -devel:
>> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-June/168712.html
>>
>> As I understand, by design, we wanted the older kernels to appear in
>> the "Advanced options" menu, but right now, it breaks every time you
>> run a kernel update.
>
> Yeh, it definitely sounds like broken behavior. Maybe we should get
> together with Josh Boyer and Peter Jones and see if we can't figure out
> some way to have older kernels go under the submenu.
>
>> Also, the string Fedora Linux is kinda wrong, cause the OS is called
>> Fedora.
>> It should be something like Fedora (with Linux kernel version here).
>
>> What is the stand of the design team on this?
>
> Well, fwiw, I think you're correct, it should just be 'Fedora' (Maybe
> Fedora + $RELEASE_NUMBER) not 'Fedora Linux.' However, I think the
> kernel versions should be in the submenu with, if I understand
> correctly, the older kernels listed out, but the newest one should just
> say Fedora. Is that too extreme?
Sounds reasonable. Show kernel versions only when they are really needed.
>
> ~m
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> design-team mailing list
> design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team



--
-Elad Alfassa.
_______________________________________________
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https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team

Dan Mashal 06-20-2012 02:08 AM

Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective
 
Personal opinion from a longtime fedora user:


1) Why do I have to go to a separate menu to choose a different kernel? Granted, I don't often have to choose an older or custom kernel but "If it ain't broke don't fix it."

2) It should just be "Fedora".

3) I don't like the way the grub menu looks right now with or without the theme. I like the old text non ubuntu/debian looking grub menu but that's just the oldskool person in me talking.


EOF


Dan

On Jun 19, 2012 1:07 AM, "Elad Alfassa" <elad@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Mirn Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> Hi Elad,

>

> On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 18:07 +0300, Elad Alfassa wrote:

>> refer to this thread in -devel:

>> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-June/168712.html

>>

>> As I understand, by design, we wanted the older kernels to appear in

>> the "Advanced options" menu, but right now, it breaks every time you

>> run a kernel update.

>

> Yeh, it definitely sounds like broken behavior. Maybe we should get

> together with Josh Boyer and Peter Jones and see if we can't figure out

> some way to have older kernels go under the submenu.

>

>> Also, the string Fedora Linux is kinda wrong, cause the OS is called

>> Fedora.

>> It should be something like Fedora (with Linux kernel version here).

>

>> What is the stand of the design team on this?

>

> Well, fwiw, I think you're correct, it should just be 'Fedora' (Maybe

> Fedora + $RELEASE_NUMBER) not 'Fedora Linux.' However, I think the

> kernel versions should be in the submenu with, if I understand

> correctly, the older kernels listed out, but the newest one should just

> say Fedora. Is that too extreme?

Sounds reasonable. Show kernel versions only when they are really needed.

>

> ~m

>

>

> _______________________________________________

> design-team mailing list

> design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team







--

-Elad Alfassa.

_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
_______________________________________________
design-team mailing list
design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team

Elad Alfassa 06-20-2012 07:09 AM

Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective
 
On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 5:08 AM, Dan Mashal <dan.mashal@gmail.com> wrote:


Personal opinion from a longtime fedora user:


1) Why do I have to go to a separate menu to choose a different kernel? Granted, I don't often have to choose an older or custom kernel but "If it ain't broke don't fix it."


Simply because we want to make Fedora easier to use. For novice users, the kernel versions are just noise, they mean nothing, and probably cause a lot of confusion. Especially if they dual-boot, they wouldn't know what to choose, and might actually boot an older kernel regularly.

Furthermore, you can always revert to the current behaviour by simply editing some configuration files.



2) It should just be "Fedora".

Without release number? what if you have both Rawhide and 17 installed?
I think it should be Fedora $number



3) I don't like the way the grub menu looks right now with or without the theme. I like the old text non ubuntu/debian looking grub menu but that's just the oldskool person in me talking.*


Well, I like how it looks with the theme, but if you don't like it you could always make your own theme to make it look like you want, or talk with upstream grub and explain to them why you think the default doesn't look good.



EOF


Dan

On Jun 19, 2012 1:07 AM, "Elad Alfassa" <elad@fedoraproject.org> wrote:

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Mirn Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> Hi Elad,

>

> On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 18:07 +0300, Elad Alfassa wrote:

>> refer to this thread in -devel:

>> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-June/168712.html

>>

>> As I understand, by design, we wanted the older kernels to appear in

>> the "Advanced options" menu, but right now, it breaks every time you

>> run a kernel update.

>

> Yeh, it definitely sounds like broken behavior. Maybe we should get

> together with Josh Boyer and Peter Jones and see if we can't figure out

> some way to have older kernels go under the submenu.

>

>> Also, the string Fedora Linux is kinda wrong, cause the OS is called

>> Fedora.

>> It should be something like Fedora (with Linux kernel version here).

>

>> What is the stand of the design team on this?

>

> Well, fwiw, I think you're correct, it should just be 'Fedora' (Maybe

> Fedora + $RELEASE_NUMBER) not 'Fedora Linux.' However, I think the

> kernel versions should be in the submenu with, if I understand

> correctly, the older kernels listed out, but the newest one should just

> say Fedora. Is that too extreme?

Sounds reasonable. Show kernel versions only when they are really needed.

>

> ~m

>

>

> _______________________________________________

> design-team mailing list

> design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team







--

-Elad Alfassa.

_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team

_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team


--

-Elad Alfassa.


_______________________________________________
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https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team

Dan Mashal 06-20-2012 07:18 AM

Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective
 
Quote: "Simply because we want to make Fedora easier to use. For novice users, the kernel versions are just noise, they mean nothing, and probably cause a lot of confusion. Especially if they dual-boot, they wouldn't know what to choose, and might actually boot an older kernel regularly.

Furthermore, you can always revert to the current behaviour by simply editing some configuration files."
If you wanted to make it easier for "novice users" then why do novice users have to do so much work out of the box to get stuff working? This is such a minor fix for "novice users".*

"Novice users" use Ubuntu. Think about why. I understand that Ubuntu and Fedora have different "religious" philosophies but this is reality without getting too in the the actual "religion" of FOSS and the 4 foundations of Fedora.

Quote "Without release number? what if you have both Rawhide and 17 installed?
I think it should be Fedora $number"
So a "novice user" would have Rawhide installed? :)

A novice user just wants it to "work" "out of the box".
I mean it's really that simple.
On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 12:09 AM, Elad Alfassa <elad@fedoraproject.org> wrote:



On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 5:08 AM, Dan Mashal <dan.mashal@gmail.com> wrote:



Personal opinion from a longtime fedora user:


1) Why do I have to go to a separate menu to choose a different kernel? Granted, I don't often have to choose an older or custom kernel but "If it ain't broke don't fix it."



Simply because we want to make Fedora easier to use. For novice users, the kernel versions are just noise, they mean nothing, and probably cause a lot of confusion. Especially if they dual-boot, they wouldn't know what to choose, and might actually boot an older kernel regularly.


Furthermore, you can always revert to the current behaviour by simply editing some configuration files.




2) It should just be "Fedora".

Without release number? what if you have both Rawhide and 17 installed?
I think it should be Fedora $number




3) I don't like the way the grub menu looks right now with or without the theme. I like the old text non ubuntu/debian looking grub menu but that's just the oldskool person in me talking.*



Well, I like how it looks with the theme, but if you don't like it you could always make your own theme to make it look like you want, or talk with upstream grub and explain to them why you think the default doesn't look good.




EOF


Dan

On Jun 19, 2012 1:07 AM, "Elad Alfassa" <elad@fedoraproject.org> wrote:


On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Mirn Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> Hi Elad,

>

> On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 18:07 +0300, Elad Alfassa wrote:

>> refer to this thread in -devel:

>> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-June/168712.html

>>

>> As I understand, by design, we wanted the older kernels to appear in

>> the "Advanced options" menu, but right now, it breaks every time you

>> run a kernel update.

>

> Yeh, it definitely sounds like broken behavior. Maybe we should get

> together with Josh Boyer and Peter Jones and see if we can't figure out

> some way to have older kernels go under the submenu.

>

>> Also, the string Fedora Linux is kinda wrong, cause the OS is called

>> Fedora.

>> It should be something like Fedora (with Linux kernel version here).

>

>> What is the stand of the design team on this?

>

> Well, fwiw, I think you're correct, it should just be 'Fedora' (Maybe

> Fedora + $RELEASE_NUMBER) not 'Fedora Linux.' However, I think the

> kernel versions should be in the submenu with, if I understand

> correctly, the older kernels listed out, but the newest one should just

> say Fedora. Is that too extreme?

Sounds reasonable. Show kernel versions only when they are really needed.

>

> ~m

>

>

> _______________________________________________

> design-team mailing list

> design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team







--

-Elad Alfassa.

_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team

_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team



--

-Elad Alfassa.



_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team


_______________________________________________
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Dan Mashal 06-20-2012 07:24 AM

Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective
 
To further add to my previous email, don't forget about your core user base. Since you are aiming for the "novice user" what happens to the "expert/intermediate user base"?
Do you just neglect them and they just accept all the changes you make in order to make Fedora more "Novice friendly"?*

So what happens to the guy that's been doing things the way it's been done for 10+ years and you change it on him and he has to relearn everything all over again?
You now just turned and intermediate/expert user into a novice user. I find that counterproductive.

Just shedding a different way of thinking on the matter. I respect everyone's contributions I'm just making my own personal opinion and voice heard since that what is so awesome about this community is that I can say how I feel and contribute my opinion while it may not be taken as "Oh my god this guy is so right what were we thinking?" it's definitely something to think about.

Thanks,Dan
On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 12:18 AM, Dan Mashal <dan.mashal@gmail.com> wrote:


Quote: "Simply because we want to make Fedora easier to use. For novice users, the kernel versions are just noise, they mean nothing, and probably cause a lot of confusion. Especially if they dual-boot, they wouldn't know what to choose, and might actually boot an older kernel regularly.


Furthermore, you can always revert to the current behaviour by simply editing some configuration files."
If you wanted to make it easier for "novice users" then why do novice users have to do so much work out of the box to get stuff working? This is such a minor fix for "novice users".*


"Novice users" use Ubuntu. Think about why. I understand that Ubuntu and Fedora have different "religious" philosophies but this is reality without getting too in the the actual "religion" of FOSS and the 4 foundations of Fedora.


Quote "Without release number? what if you have both Rawhide and 17 installed?
I think it should be Fedora $number"
So a "novice user" would have Rawhide installed? :)


A novice user just wants it to "work" "out of the box".
I mean it's really that simple.

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 12:09 AM, Elad Alfassa <elad@fedoraproject.org> wrote:



On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 5:08 AM, Dan Mashal <dan.mashal@gmail.com> wrote:




Personal opinion from a longtime fedora user:


1) Why do I have to go to a separate menu to choose a different kernel? Granted, I don't often have to choose an older or custom kernel but "If it ain't broke don't fix it."




Simply because we want to make Fedora easier to use. For novice users, the kernel versions are just noise, they mean nothing, and probably cause a lot of confusion. Especially if they dual-boot, they wouldn't know what to choose, and might actually boot an older kernel regularly.



Furthermore, you can always revert to the current behaviour by simply editing some configuration files.





2) It should just be "Fedora".

Without release number? what if you have both Rawhide and 17 installed?
I think it should be Fedora $number





3) I don't like the way the grub menu looks right now with or without the theme. I like the old text non ubuntu/debian looking grub menu but that's just the oldskool person in me talking.*




Well, I like how it looks with the theme, but if you don't like it you could always make your own theme to make it look like you want, or talk with upstream grub and explain to them why you think the default doesn't look good.





EOF


Dan

On Jun 19, 2012 1:07 AM, "Elad Alfassa" <elad@fedoraproject.org> wrote:



On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Mirn Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> Hi Elad,

>

> On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 18:07 +0300, Elad Alfassa wrote:

>> refer to this thread in -devel:

>> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-June/168712.html

>>

>> As I understand, by design, we wanted the older kernels to appear in

>> the "Advanced options" menu, but right now, it breaks every time you

>> run a kernel update.

>

> Yeh, it definitely sounds like broken behavior. Maybe we should get

> together with Josh Boyer and Peter Jones and see if we can't figure out

> some way to have older kernels go under the submenu.

>

>> Also, the string Fedora Linux is kinda wrong, cause the OS is called

>> Fedora.

>> It should be something like Fedora (with Linux kernel version here).

>

>> What is the stand of the design team on this?

>

> Well, fwiw, I think you're correct, it should just be 'Fedora' (Maybe

> Fedora + $RELEASE_NUMBER) not 'Fedora Linux.' However, I think the

> kernel versions should be in the submenu with, if I understand

> correctly, the older kernels listed out, but the newest one should just

> say Fedora. Is that too extreme?

Sounds reasonable. Show kernel versions only when they are really needed.

>

> ~m

>

>

> _______________________________________________

> design-team mailing list

> design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team







--

-Elad Alfassa.

_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team

_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team



--

-Elad Alfassa.



_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team




_______________________________________________
design-team mailing list
design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team


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