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Old 06-20-2012, 08:07 PM
Dan Mashal
 
Default Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective

Thinking about it like this makes more sense.

On Jun 20, 2012 12:56 PM, "Onyeibo Oku" <twohotis@gmail.com> wrote:







+20



On Wed, 2012-06-20 at 21:39 +0200, Martin Sourada wrote:


On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 08:03:35 -0700
Kirk Bridger wrote:

>
> Perhaps we can put some additional solution ideas forward.
>
> As a quasi-novice kernel user I always found it helpful to have the
> kernel versions visible. When I update Fedora and the nvidia blob
> causes X to fail, I like being able to choose older versions because
> I can't do anything else. When a pre-upgrade ends up with a
> non-working version, I like to be able to run an older version to
> stay productive while I research the problem.
>
> I'm not an expert user but I don't think I'm novice either. I don't
> see why we need to *hide* the older versions behind another menu,
> just perhaps make it more clear that the old versions are still
> functional but are not the latest on the machine.
>
> Novice users have the "out" of saying "I don't know what this all
> means but I know I want to launch the most current version". And if
> they're dropped back here after a failure or two trying the current
> version they can try the older versions.
>
> This all assumes that we're limited to the current console-style
> menu. If we can use HTML/CSS or some other layout and styling we can
> make this info much more parse-able with styling and different font
> sizes/layout. If we can do more than just console can someone send a
> screenshot of what we can do, and maybe we can mock something up?
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Welcome to Fedora 17 (BeefyMiracle)
>
> *Current Versions*
> Fedora 17 (kernel-3.6.0-1.fc17)
> *
> Superceded Versions*
> Fedora 17 (kernel-3.5.20-3.fc17)
> Fedora 17 (kernel-3.5.20-2.fc17)
> Fedora 16 (kernel-3.2.10-4.fc16)
>
> *Other Operating Systems*
> Microsoft Windows 7
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
IMHO not a bad idea. I have a few notes though:
* Fedora 16 and Fedora 17 should be considered separate operating
systems (*if* they use different root).
* Boot loader should behave look like boot-loader not like an already
running operating system (the "Welcome to Fedora 17" text is
misleading)
* Why have Fedora stylistically higher priority than other operating
systems?

IMHO, there are multiple different types of users, who use fedora,
let's divide them into few different groups.

1. Dual booters -- Fedora and Windows (or Mac)
==============================================
These people probably just want to boot the latest version unless
something is broken. They might or might not know what the kernel
versions mean. It might be better to "hide" older kernels in submenu
(or if grub2 allows some better css-like way, why not?)

2. *nix enthusiasts/developers -- multi-booters
==============================================
These people will probably have multiple operating systems installed,
maybe even various versions of fedora. Let's say they have (for example)
Fedora Rawhide, Fedora 17, Debian 6.0, FreeBSD 9 and Arch Linux. They
know very well what kernel is, but if all installed kernels are listed
there, the list gets rather large and it gets hard to quickly find the
latest kernel. Especially for the two Fedoras that you can tell apart
only by the fc18 vs. fc17 in kernel release number... While it would
make selecting *older* kernel versions slower, I think it would be
better to *hide* the older kernels in submenu, thus making the main
menu easier to navigate. IMHO the gain of quicker selection of most
recent kernel for each release would outweigh the less frequent slow
down introduced by submenus.

3. Massive virtualization
=========================
These people have only one host operating system, the rest is in
virtual machines. IMHO they are the only group that would *not* benefit
from switch to sub-menus.

IMHO, the gains to the first two groups outweigh the loss of the third
group, but well, others might disagree. That's why we discuss things,
right?

So how would the bootloader screen would look like?

----------------------------------------------------
Welcome to GRUB 2
Select an OS to boot:

* Fedora Rawhide (with linux-3.6.0-23.fc18)
* Fedora 17 (with linux-3.6.0-23.fc17)
* Debian 6.0 (with linux-2.6.28.3-23)
* Microsoft Windows 7
--------
* Fedora Rawhide (Rescue)
- older kernels listed in this submenu, and possibly some special
rescue mode(s)
* Fedora 17 (Rescue)
- older kernels listed in this submenu, and possibly some special
rescue mode(s)
* Debian 6.0 (Rescue)
- older kernels listed in this submenu, and possibly some special
rescue mode(s)
* Microsoft Windows 7
- if we can only chainload win 7, this would not make sense, however
if we could run rescue modes for win from grub, this where it would
be.

----------------------------------------------------


THanks,
Martin
_______________________________________________
design-team mailing list
design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team









_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team

_______________________________________________
design-team mailing list
design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
 
Old 06-20-2012, 08:11 PM
Dan Mashal
 
Default Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective

However, keep one thing in mind. It already automagically selects the lates Fedora kernel without user intervention, Martin.

On Jun 20, 2012 12:39 PM, "Martin Sourada" <martin.sourada@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 08:03:35 -0700

Kirk Bridger wrote:



>

> Perhaps we can put some additional solution ideas forward.

>

> As a quasi-novice kernel user I always found it helpful to have the

> kernel versions visible. *When I update Fedora and the nvidia blob

> causes X to fail, I like being able to choose older versions because

> I can't do anything else. *When a pre-upgrade ends up with a

> non-working version, I like to be able to run an older version to

> stay productive while I research the problem.

>

> I'm not an expert user but I don't think I'm novice either. *I don't

> see why we need to *hide* the older versions behind another menu,

> just perhaps make it more clear that the old versions are still

> functional but are not the latest on the machine.

>

> Novice users have the "out" of saying "I don't know what this all

> means but I know I want to launch the most current version". *And if

> they're dropped back here after a failure or two trying the current

> version they can try the older versions.

>

> This all assumes that we're limited to the current console-style

> menu. If we can use HTML/CSS or some other layout and styling we can

> make this info much more parse-able with styling and different font

> sizes/layout. If we can do more than just console can someone send a

> screenshot of what we can do, and maybe we can mock something up?

>

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> Welcome to Fedora 17 (BeefyMiracle)

>

> *Current Versions*

> Fedora 17 (kernel-3.6.0-1.fc17)

> *

> Superceded Versions*

> Fedora 17 (kernel-3.5.20-3.fc17)

> Fedora 17 (kernel-3.5.20-2.fc17)

> Fedora 16 (kernel-3.2.10-4.fc16)

>

> *Other Operating Systems*

> Microsoft Windows 7

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>

IMHO not a bad idea. I have a few notes though:

** Fedora 16 and Fedora 17 should be considered separate operating

* systems (*if* they use different root).

** Boot loader should behave look like boot-loader not like an already

* running operating system (the "Welcome to Fedora 17" text is

* misleading)

** Why have Fedora stylistically higher priority than other operating

* systems?



IMHO, there are multiple different types of users, who use fedora,

let's divide them into few different groups.



1. Dual booters -- Fedora and Windows (or Mac)

==============================================

These people probably just want to boot the latest version unless

something is broken. They might or might not know what the kernel

versions mean. It might be better to "hide" older kernels in submenu

(or if grub2 allows some better css-like way, why not?)



2. *nix enthusiasts/developers -- multi-booters

==============================================

These people will probably have multiple operating systems installed,

maybe even various versions of fedora. Let's say they have (for example)

Fedora Rawhide, Fedora 17, Debian 6.0, FreeBSD 9 and Arch Linux. They

know very well what kernel is, but if all installed kernels are listed

there, the list gets rather large and it gets hard to quickly find the

latest kernel. Especially for the two Fedoras that you can tell apart

only by the fc18 vs. fc17 in kernel release number... While it would

make selecting *older* kernel versions slower, I think it would be

better to *hide* the older kernels in submenu, thus making the main

menu easier to navigate. IMHO the gain of quicker selection of most

recent kernel for each release would outweigh the less frequent slow

down introduced by submenus.



3. Massive virtualization

=========================

These people have only one host operating system, the rest is in

virtual machines. IMHO they are the only group that would *not* benefit

from switch to sub-menus.



IMHO, the gains to the first two groups outweigh the loss of the third

group, but well, others might disagree. That's why we discuss things,

right?



So how would the bootloader screen would look like?



----------------------------------------------------

* * * * * * * *Welcome to GRUB 2

* * * * * * *Select an OS to boot:



* Fedora Rawhide (with linux-3.6.0-23.fc18)

* Fedora 17 (with linux-3.6.0-23.fc17)

* Debian 6.0 (with linux-2.6.28.3-23)

* Microsoft Windows 7

* * * --------

* Fedora Rawhide (Rescue)

*- older kernels listed in this submenu, and possibly some special

* rescue mode(s)

* Fedora 17 (Rescue)

*- older kernels listed in this submenu, and possibly some special

* rescue mode(s)

* Debian 6.0 (Rescue)

*- older kernels listed in this submenu, and possibly some special

* rescue mode(s)

* Microsoft Windows 7

*- if we can only chainload win 7, this would not make sense, however

* if we could run rescue modes for win from grub, this where it would

* be.



----------------------------------------------------





THanks,

Martin

_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
_______________________________________________
design-team mailing list
design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
 
Old 06-20-2012, 08:12 PM
Elad Alfassa
 
Default Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective

I do not like this approach, way too much clutter.

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 11:11 PM, Dan Mashal <dan.mashal@gmail.com> wrote:


However, keep one thing in mind. It already automagically selects the lates Fedora kernel without user intervention, Martin.


On Jun 20, 2012 12:39 PM, "Martin Sourada" <martin.sourada@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 08:03:35 -0700

Kirk Bridger wrote:



>

> Perhaps we can put some additional solution ideas forward.

>

> As a quasi-novice kernel user I always found it helpful to have the

> kernel versions visible. *When I update Fedora and the nvidia blob

> causes X to fail, I like being able to choose older versions because

> I can't do anything else. *When a pre-upgrade ends up with a

> non-working version, I like to be able to run an older version to

> stay productive while I research the problem.

>

> I'm not an expert user but I don't think I'm novice either. *I don't

> see why we need to *hide* the older versions behind another menu,

> just perhaps make it more clear that the old versions are still

> functional but are not the latest on the machine.

>

> Novice users have the "out" of saying "I don't know what this all

> means but I know I want to launch the most current version". *And if

> they're dropped back here after a failure or two trying the current

> version they can try the older versions.

>

> This all assumes that we're limited to the current console-style

> menu. If we can use HTML/CSS or some other layout and styling we can

> make this info much more parse-able with styling and different font

> sizes/layout. If we can do more than just console can someone send a

> screenshot of what we can do, and maybe we can mock something up?

>

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> Welcome to Fedora 17 (BeefyMiracle)

>

> *Current Versions*

> Fedora 17 (kernel-3.6.0-1.fc17)

> *

> Superceded Versions*

> Fedora 17 (kernel-3.5.20-3.fc17)

> Fedora 17 (kernel-3.5.20-2.fc17)

> Fedora 16 (kernel-3.2.10-4.fc16)

>

> *Other Operating Systems*

> Microsoft Windows 7

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>

IMHO not a bad idea. I have a few notes though:

** Fedora 16 and Fedora 17 should be considered separate operating

* systems (*if* they use different root).

** Boot loader should behave look like boot-loader not like an already

* running operating system (the "Welcome to Fedora 17" text is

* misleading)

** Why have Fedora stylistically higher priority than other operating

* systems?



IMHO, there are multiple different types of users, who use fedora,

let's divide them into few different groups.



1. Dual booters -- Fedora and Windows (or Mac)

==============================================

These people probably just want to boot the latest version unless

something is broken. They might or might not know what the kernel

versions mean. It might be better to "hide" older kernels in submenu

(or if grub2 allows some better css-like way, why not?)



2. *nix enthusiasts/developers -- multi-booters

==============================================

These people will probably have multiple operating systems installed,

maybe even various versions of fedora. Let's say they have (for example)

Fedora Rawhide, Fedora 17, Debian 6.0, FreeBSD 9 and Arch Linux. They

know very well what kernel is, but if all installed kernels are listed

there, the list gets rather large and it gets hard to quickly find the

latest kernel. Especially for the two Fedoras that you can tell apart

only by the fc18 vs. fc17 in kernel release number... While it would

make selecting *older* kernel versions slower, I think it would be

better to *hide* the older kernels in submenu, thus making the main

menu easier to navigate. IMHO the gain of quicker selection of most

recent kernel for each release would outweigh the less frequent slow

down introduced by submenus.



3. Massive virtualization

=========================

These people have only one host operating system, the rest is in

virtual machines. IMHO they are the only group that would *not* benefit

from switch to sub-menus.



IMHO, the gains to the first two groups outweigh the loss of the third

group, but well, others might disagree. That's why we discuss things,

right?



So how would the bootloader screen would look like?



----------------------------------------------------

* * * * * * * *Welcome to GRUB 2

* * * * * * *Select an OS to boot:



* Fedora Rawhide (with linux-3.6.0-23.fc18)

* Fedora 17 (with linux-3.6.0-23.fc17)

* Debian 6.0 (with linux-2.6.28.3-23)

* Microsoft Windows 7

* * * --------

* Fedora Rawhide (Rescue)

*- older kernels listed in this submenu, and possibly some special

* rescue mode(s)

* Fedora 17 (Rescue)

*- older kernels listed in this submenu, and possibly some special

* rescue mode(s)

* Debian 6.0 (Rescue)

*- older kernels listed in this submenu, and possibly some special

* rescue mode(s)

* Microsoft Windows 7

*- if we can only chainload win 7, this would not make sense, however

* if we could run rescue modes for win from grub, this where it would

* be.



----------------------------------------------------





THanks,

Martin

_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team

_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team


--

-Elad Alfassa.


_______________________________________________
design-team mailing list
design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
 
Old 06-20-2012, 08:27 PM
Dan Mashal
 
Default Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective

Then maybe we should have a vote on it just like we did with release names? Maybe we should do more voting on more major changes? Maybe we should make it a full democracy instead of the engineering team decides is "better for the novice user" when they don't even communicate with the novice user.



Dan

On Jun 20, 2012 1:12 PM, "Elad Alfassa" <elad@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
I do not like this approach, way too much clutter.

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 11:11 PM, Dan Mashal <dan.mashal@gmail.com> wrote:



However, keep one thing in mind. It already automagically selects the lates Fedora kernel without user intervention, Martin.



On Jun 20, 2012 12:39 PM, "Martin Sourada" <martin.sourada@gmail.com> wrote:


On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 08:03:35 -0700

Kirk Bridger wrote:



>

> Perhaps we can put some additional solution ideas forward.

>

> As a quasi-novice kernel user I always found it helpful to have the

> kernel versions visible. *When I update Fedora and the nvidia blob

> causes X to fail, I like being able to choose older versions because

> I can't do anything else. *When a pre-upgrade ends up with a

> non-working version, I like to be able to run an older version to

> stay productive while I research the problem.

>

> I'm not an expert user but I don't think I'm novice either. *I don't

> see why we need to *hide* the older versions behind another menu,

> just perhaps make it more clear that the old versions are still

> functional but are not the latest on the machine.

>

> Novice users have the "out" of saying "I don't know what this all

> means but I know I want to launch the most current version". *And if

> they're dropped back here after a failure or two trying the current

> version they can try the older versions.

>

> This all assumes that we're limited to the current console-style

> menu. If we can use HTML/CSS or some other layout and styling we can

> make this info much more parse-able with styling and different font

> sizes/layout. If we can do more than just console can someone send a

> screenshot of what we can do, and maybe we can mock something up?

>

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> Welcome to Fedora 17 (BeefyMiracle)

>

> *Current Versions*

> Fedora 17 (kernel-3.6.0-1.fc17)

> *

> Superceded Versions*

> Fedora 17 (kernel-3.5.20-3.fc17)

> Fedora 17 (kernel-3.5.20-2.fc17)

> Fedora 16 (kernel-3.2.10-4.fc16)

>

> *Other Operating Systems*

> Microsoft Windows 7

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>

IMHO not a bad idea. I have a few notes though:

** Fedora 16 and Fedora 17 should be considered separate operating

* systems (*if* they use different root).

** Boot loader should behave look like boot-loader not like an already

* running operating system (the "Welcome to Fedora 17" text is

* misleading)

** Why have Fedora stylistically higher priority than other operating

* systems?



IMHO, there are multiple different types of users, who use fedora,

let's divide them into few different groups.



1. Dual booters -- Fedora and Windows (or Mac)

==============================================

These people probably just want to boot the latest version unless

something is broken. They might or might not know what the kernel

versions mean. It might be better to "hide" older kernels in submenu

(or if grub2 allows some better css-like way, why not?)



2. *nix enthusiasts/developers -- multi-booters

==============================================

These people will probably have multiple operating systems installed,

maybe even various versions of fedora. Let's say they have (for example)

Fedora Rawhide, Fedora 17, Debian 6.0, FreeBSD 9 and Arch Linux. They

know very well what kernel is, but if all installed kernels are listed

there, the list gets rather large and it gets hard to quickly find the

latest kernel. Especially for the two Fedoras that you can tell apart

only by the fc18 vs. fc17 in kernel release number... While it would

make selecting *older* kernel versions slower, I think it would be

better to *hide* the older kernels in submenu, thus making the main

menu easier to navigate. IMHO the gain of quicker selection of most

recent kernel for each release would outweigh the less frequent slow

down introduced by submenus.



3. Massive virtualization

=========================

These people have only one host operating system, the rest is in

virtual machines. IMHO they are the only group that would *not* benefit

from switch to sub-menus.



IMHO, the gains to the first two groups outweigh the loss of the third

group, but well, others might disagree. That's why we discuss things,

right?



So how would the bootloader screen would look like?



----------------------------------------------------

* * * * * * * *Welcome to GRUB 2

* * * * * * *Select an OS to boot:



* Fedora Rawhide (with linux-3.6.0-23.fc18)

* Fedora 17 (with linux-3.6.0-23.fc17)

* Debian 6.0 (with linux-2.6.28.3-23)

* Microsoft Windows 7

* * * --------

* Fedora Rawhide (Rescue)

*- older kernels listed in this submenu, and possibly some special

* rescue mode(s)

* Fedora 17 (Rescue)

*- older kernels listed in this submenu, and possibly some special

* rescue mode(s)

* Debian 6.0 (Rescue)

*- older kernels listed in this submenu, and possibly some special

* rescue mode(s)

* Microsoft Windows 7

*- if we can only chainload win 7, this would not make sense, however

* if we could run rescue modes for win from grub, this where it would

* be.



----------------------------------------------------





THanks,

Martin

_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team

_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team


--


-Elad Alfassa.



_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team

_______________________________________________
design-team mailing list
design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
 
Old 06-20-2012, 09:34 PM
Elad Alfassa
 
Default Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective

if we were to vote on every single change we would never get any work done. this is not important enough for a vote.


and, if you think everything should be up for a vote, what is the point in having a design team, or fesco, or even the board? the simple answer is having every fedora contributor to vote on every decision is not ralistic and counter-productive.



sent from a mobile device so please excuse spelling mistakes.

On Jun 20, 2012 11:28 PM, "Dan Mashal" <dan.mashal@gmail.com> wrote:

Then maybe we should have a vote on it just like we did with release names? Maybe we should do more voting on more major changes? Maybe we should make it a full democracy instead of the engineering team decides is "better for the novice user" when they don't even communicate with the novice user.




Dan

On Jun 20, 2012 1:12 PM, "Elad Alfassa" <elad@fedoraproject.org> wrote:

I do not like this approach, way too much clutter.

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 11:11 PM, Dan Mashal <dan.mashal@gmail.com> wrote:




However, keep one thing in mind. It already automagically selects the lates Fedora kernel without user intervention, Martin.




On Jun 20, 2012 12:39 PM, "Martin Sourada" <martin.sourada@gmail.com> wrote:



On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 08:03:35 -0700

Kirk Bridger wrote:



>

> Perhaps we can put some additional solution ideas forward.

>

> As a quasi-novice kernel user I always found it helpful to have the

> kernel versions visible. *When I update Fedora and the nvidia blob

> causes X to fail, I like being able to choose older versions because

> I can't do anything else. *When a pre-upgrade ends up with a

> non-working version, I like to be able to run an older version to

> stay productive while I research the problem.

>

> I'm not an expert user but I don't think I'm novice either. *I don't

> see why we need to *hide* the older versions behind another menu,

> just perhaps make it more clear that the old versions are still

> functional but are not the latest on the machine.

>

> Novice users have the "out" of saying "I don't know what this all

> means but I know I want to launch the most current version". *And if

> they're dropped back here after a failure or two trying the current

> version they can try the older versions.

>

> This all assumes that we're limited to the current console-style

> menu. If we can use HTML/CSS or some other layout and styling we can

> make this info much more parse-able with styling and different font

> sizes/layout. If we can do more than just console can someone send a

> screenshot of what we can do, and maybe we can mock something up?

>

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> Welcome to Fedora 17 (BeefyMiracle)

>

> *Current Versions*

> Fedora 17 (kernel-3.6.0-1.fc17)

> *

> Superceded Versions*

> Fedora 17 (kernel-3.5.20-3.fc17)

> Fedora 17 (kernel-3.5.20-2.fc17)

> Fedora 16 (kernel-3.2.10-4.fc16)

>

> *Other Operating Systems*

> Microsoft Windows 7

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>

IMHO not a bad idea. I have a few notes though:

** Fedora 16 and Fedora 17 should be considered separate operating

* systems (*if* they use different root).

** Boot loader should behave look like boot-loader not like an already

* running operating system (the "Welcome to Fedora 17" text is

* misleading)

** Why have Fedora stylistically higher priority than other operating

* systems?



IMHO, there are multiple different types of users, who use fedora,

let's divide them into few different groups.



1. Dual booters -- Fedora and Windows (or Mac)

==============================================

These people probably just want to boot the latest version unless

something is broken. They might or might not know what the kernel

versions mean. It might be better to "hide" older kernels in submenu

(or if grub2 allows some better css-like way, why not?)



2. *nix enthusiasts/developers -- multi-booters

==============================================

These people will probably have multiple operating systems installed,

maybe even various versions of fedora. Let's say they have (for example)

Fedora Rawhide, Fedora 17, Debian 6.0, FreeBSD 9 and Arch Linux. They

know very well what kernel is, but if all installed kernels are listed

there, the list gets rather large and it gets hard to quickly find the

latest kernel. Especially for the two Fedoras that you can tell apart

only by the fc18 vs. fc17 in kernel release number... While it would

make selecting *older* kernel versions slower, I think it would be

better to *hide* the older kernels in submenu, thus making the main

menu easier to navigate. IMHO the gain of quicker selection of most

recent kernel for each release would outweigh the less frequent slow

down introduced by submenus.



3. Massive virtualization

=========================

These people have only one host operating system, the rest is in

virtual machines. IMHO they are the only group that would *not* benefit

from switch to sub-menus.



IMHO, the gains to the first two groups outweigh the loss of the third

group, but well, others might disagree. That's why we discuss things,

right?



So how would the bootloader screen would look like?



----------------------------------------------------

* * * * * * * *Welcome to GRUB 2

* * * * * * *Select an OS to boot:



* Fedora Rawhide (with linux-3.6.0-23.fc18)

* Fedora 17 (with linux-3.6.0-23.fc17)

* Debian 6.0 (with linux-2.6.28.3-23)

* Microsoft Windows 7

* * * --------

* Fedora Rawhide (Rescue)

*- older kernels listed in this submenu, and possibly some special

* rescue mode(s)

* Fedora 17 (Rescue)

*- older kernels listed in this submenu, and possibly some special

* rescue mode(s)

* Debian 6.0 (Rescue)

*- older kernels listed in this submenu, and possibly some special

* rescue mode(s)

* Microsoft Windows 7

*- if we can only chainload win 7, this would not make sense, however

* if we could run rescue modes for win from grub, this where it would

* be.



----------------------------------------------------





THanks,

Martin

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Old 06-20-2012, 10:57 PM
Dan Mashal
 
Default Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective

Fair enough.


Points have been made.

On Jun 20, 2012 2:34 PM, "Elad Alfassa" <elad@fedoraproject.org> wrote:

if we were to vote on every single change we would never get any work done. this is not important enough for a vote.


and, if you think everything should be up for a vote, what is the point in having a design team, or fesco, or even the board? the simple answer is having every fedora contributor to vote on every decision is not ralistic and counter-productive.




sent from a mobile device so please excuse spelling mistakes.

On Jun 20, 2012 11:28 PM, "Dan Mashal" <dan.mashal@gmail.com> wrote:


Then maybe we should have a vote on it just like we did with release names? Maybe we should do more voting on more major changes? Maybe we should make it a full democracy instead of the engineering team decides is "better for the novice user" when they don't even communicate with the novice user.





Dan

On Jun 20, 2012 1:12 PM, "Elad Alfassa" <elad@fedoraproject.org> wrote:


I do not like this approach, way too much clutter.

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 11:11 PM, Dan Mashal <dan.mashal@gmail.com> wrote:





However, keep one thing in mind. It already automagically selects the lates Fedora kernel without user intervention, Martin.





On Jun 20, 2012 12:39 PM, "Martin Sourada" <martin.sourada@gmail.com> wrote:




On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 08:03:35 -0700

Kirk Bridger wrote:



>

> Perhaps we can put some additional solution ideas forward.

>

> As a quasi-novice kernel user I always found it helpful to have the

> kernel versions visible. *When I update Fedora and the nvidia blob

> causes X to fail, I like being able to choose older versions because

> I can't do anything else. *When a pre-upgrade ends up with a

> non-working version, I like to be able to run an older version to

> stay productive while I research the problem.

>

> I'm not an expert user but I don't think I'm novice either. *I don't

> see why we need to *hide* the older versions behind another menu,

> just perhaps make it more clear that the old versions are still

> functional but are not the latest on the machine.

>

> Novice users have the "out" of saying "I don't know what this all

> means but I know I want to launch the most current version". *And if

> they're dropped back here after a failure or two trying the current

> version they can try the older versions.

>

> This all assumes that we're limited to the current console-style

> menu. If we can use HTML/CSS or some other layout and styling we can

> make this info much more parse-able with styling and different font

> sizes/layout. If we can do more than just console can someone send a

> screenshot of what we can do, and maybe we can mock something up?

>

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> Welcome to Fedora 17 (BeefyMiracle)

>

> *Current Versions*

> Fedora 17 (kernel-3.6.0-1.fc17)

> *

> Superceded Versions*

> Fedora 17 (kernel-3.5.20-3.fc17)

> Fedora 17 (kernel-3.5.20-2.fc17)

> Fedora 16 (kernel-3.2.10-4.fc16)

>

> *Other Operating Systems*

> Microsoft Windows 7

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>

IMHO not a bad idea. I have a few notes though:

** Fedora 16 and Fedora 17 should be considered separate operating

* systems (*if* they use different root).

** Boot loader should behave look like boot-loader not like an already

* running operating system (the "Welcome to Fedora 17" text is

* misleading)

** Why have Fedora stylistically higher priority than other operating

* systems?



IMHO, there are multiple different types of users, who use fedora,

let's divide them into few different groups.



1. Dual booters -- Fedora and Windows (or Mac)

==============================================

These people probably just want to boot the latest version unless

something is broken. They might or might not know what the kernel

versions mean. It might be better to "hide" older kernels in submenu

(or if grub2 allows some better css-like way, why not?)



2. *nix enthusiasts/developers -- multi-booters

==============================================

These people will probably have multiple operating systems installed,

maybe even various versions of fedora. Let's say they have (for example)

Fedora Rawhide, Fedora 17, Debian 6.0, FreeBSD 9 and Arch Linux. They

know very well what kernel is, but if all installed kernels are listed

there, the list gets rather large and it gets hard to quickly find the

latest kernel. Especially for the two Fedoras that you can tell apart

only by the fc18 vs. fc17 in kernel release number... While it would

make selecting *older* kernel versions slower, I think it would be

better to *hide* the older kernels in submenu, thus making the main

menu easier to navigate. IMHO the gain of quicker selection of most

recent kernel for each release would outweigh the less frequent slow

down introduced by submenus.



3. Massive virtualization

=========================

These people have only one host operating system, the rest is in

virtual machines. IMHO they are the only group that would *not* benefit

from switch to sub-menus.



IMHO, the gains to the first two groups outweigh the loss of the third

group, but well, others might disagree. That's why we discuss things,

right?



So how would the bootloader screen would look like?



----------------------------------------------------

* * * * * * * *Welcome to GRUB 2

* * * * * * *Select an OS to boot:



* Fedora Rawhide (with linux-3.6.0-23.fc18)

* Fedora 17 (with linux-3.6.0-23.fc17)

* Debian 6.0 (with linux-2.6.28.3-23)

* Microsoft Windows 7

* * * --------

* Fedora Rawhide (Rescue)

*- older kernels listed in this submenu, and possibly some special

* rescue mode(s)

* Fedora 17 (Rescue)

*- older kernels listed in this submenu, and possibly some special

* rescue mode(s)

* Debian 6.0 (Rescue)

*- older kernels listed in this submenu, and possibly some special

* rescue mode(s)

* Microsoft Windows 7

*- if we can only chainload win 7, this would not make sense, however

* if we could run rescue modes for win from grub, this where it would

* be.



----------------------------------------------------





THanks,

Martin

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Old 06-20-2012, 11:04 PM
Kirk Bridger
 
Default Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective

tl;dr version:



1 - I think data should be collected before we make assumptions
about our user base.



2 - I think categorizing is a better solution than hiding, as users
with lots of kernels/OSs are more likely to be switching more often,
vs users with just a few.* The value of reducing clutter is
minimized is clutter consists of 3-5 items, and hiding things makes
it harder to do what you want to do.



3 - I think removing clutter is a good goal, provided it meets our
users needs (see comment #1)





Kirk









On 06/20/2012 12:39 PM, Martin Sourada wrote:


IMHO not a bad idea. I have a few notes though:
* Fedora 16 and Fedora 17 should be considered separate operating
systems (*if* they use different root).

Over my technical head, sorry



* Boot loader should behave look like boot-loader not like an already
running operating system (the "Welcome to Fedora 17" text is
misleading)

I thought that since Fedora 17 is managing the bootloader it could
draw it however it liked.* Virtual shrug here though as I have no
strong feelings either way.



* Why have Fedora stylistically higher priority than other operating
systems?

Same reason above.* I'm Fedora-centric




IMHO, there are multiple different types of users, who use fedora,
let's divide them into few different groups.

Keeping in mind this is all best guess or has research been done
with the user base to pull these personas together?* If not, might
be interesting to do a quick survey to find out how many people fall
into these categories, or if other categories exist like a
single-booter, or would they just fall under the virtualization
one?* Are there bootloader needs related to virtual machines (don't
know)?* Could we just label them as single OS booters and forget the
whole virtualization thing?



I've tried to pull out a primary need from your description for each
category for further discussion.




1. Dual booters -- Fedora and Windows (or Mac)
==============================================
These people probably just want to boot the latest version unless
something is broken. They might or might not know what the kernel
versions mean. It might be better to "hide" older kernels in submenu
(or if grub2 allows some better css-like way, why not?)

Primary need: boot latest version of multiple OSs

Frequency of booting non-default option: only when switching OSs
(i.e. rarely boot old versions of an OS)




2. *nix enthusiasts/developers -- multi-booters
==============================================
These people will probably have multiple operating systems installed,
maybe even various versions of fedora. Let's say they have (for example)
Fedora Rawhide, Fedora 17, Debian 6.0, FreeBSD 9 and Arch Linux. They
know very well what kernel is, but if all installed kernels are listed
there, the list gets rather large and it gets hard to quickly find the
latest kernel. Especially for the two Fedoras that you can tell apart
only by the fc18 vs. fc17 in kernel release number... While it would
make selecting *older* kernel versions slower, I think it would be
better to *hide* the older kernels in submenu, thus making the main
menu easier to navigate. IMHO the gain of quicker selection of most
recent kernel for each release would outweigh the less frequent slow
down introduced by submenus.

Primary need: boot latest version of multiple OSs

Frequency of booting non-default option: when switching OSs and also
when choosing old versions (medium frequency)




3. Massive virtualization
=========================
These people have only one host operating system, the rest is in
virtual machines. IMHO they are the only group that would *not* benefit
from switch to sub-menus.

Primary need: boot latest version of OS

Frequency of booting non-default option: when latest version fails




IMHO, the gains to the first two groups outweigh the loss of the third
group, but well, others might disagree. That's why we discuss things,
right?

So looking at it this way, how does hiding old versions help with
any of these people in their primary need?* I think it is a
mechanism to make it easier to find the latest OS versions.* Is it
the only mechanism?* No - we could also group things as I suggested.



Hiding

Pros: Less visual clutter for persona 1 and 3 (2 may not see it as
clutter), emphasizes primary task

Cons: Harder for persona 2 to launch old versions, makes it harder
to persona 3 to know what to do when latest version fails (i.e. they
have to explore the interface to find the options)



Grouping and labelling

Pros: All options are immediately visible and findable, emphasizes
primary task

Cons: Persona 2 will have a lot of visual clutter (though they may
not see it as clutter)





So in my mind this comes down to a question of hiding the visible
clutter or not.* I'd suggest that some data here would help.* I will
also suggest that personas 1 and 3 will not have a lot of visual
clutter to see, as how many versions of OSs would they typically
have?* 1?* 3?* 5?



So we're hiding this minimal clutter and in the process making it
harder for persona 2 to work with their system.



I'm leaning towards grouping/categorizing.* Though again this is all
without any data on our user base.* I'm all for streamlining and
making things look elegant, but it seems like at least for the
personas above the best solution would be grouping.



Kirk











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Old 06-20-2012, 11:18 PM
Dan Mashal
 
Default Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective

You got it Kirk. +1


I'm sick of this "let's make fedora better for the novice user" goal when its just made EVERY user's life harder except maybe fesco's I guess....


I don't even feel like giving examples anymore, but there is a growing group of people that are really starting to disagree with the direction we are drifting from the overall standard of Linux itself.


I think some people should read the article on linux.com which ranks the categorizes every distro by advantage/disadvantage.


I.e. Mint won desktops

Fedora won "bleeding edge"

Ubuntu won "laptop"

Redhat won enterprise

Backtrack won security.


I remember reading that slackware was named the best vanilla distro.


Sometimes I miss slackware and its simplicity because of things changing every 6 months.


How long ago was Fedora 14 released? Remember how perfect it was? Everything worked great.


I'm ranting at this point so I'm gunna go sit in a jacuzzi.


Dan

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Old 06-21-2012, 01:36 AM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective

On 2012-06-19 22:08, Dan Mashal wrote:

Personal opinion from a longtime fedora user:

1) Why do I have to go to a separate menu to choose a different
kernel? Granted, I don't often have to choose an older or custom
kernel but "If it ain't broke don't fix it."


You should have to go to a separate menu to choose a different kernel
because as you yourself admitted you do not often have to choose an
older or custom kernel. If they are always displayed when most of the
time you don't need them, they are cluttering up the menu and making it
harder for you to choose what you really want from a more manageable set
of choices.



2) It should just be "Fedora".


I hear your opinion on this. We could get guidance on the board from
this if we can't decide.


3) I don't like the way the grub menu looks right now with or
without
the theme. I like the old text non ubuntu/debian looking grub menu
but

that's just the oldskool person in me talking.


Again, your personal opinion is noted. If oldskool is your interest
though, it might be better to either go with a more oldskool distro or
install an oldskool looking theme if that is your preference.


~m
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Old 06-21-2012, 01:46 AM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective

On 2012-06-20 03:18, Dan Mashal wrote:

If you wanted to make it easier for "novice users" then why do novice
users have to do so much work out of the box to get stuff working?
This is such a minor fix for "novice users".*


We are not where we want to be yet, but we are all working very hard
each release to move forward to spread free software via Fedora to more
and more people. Just because we haven't gotten there yet, I don't think
we should give up and start walking backward.


"Novice users" use Ubuntu. Think about why. I understand that Ubuntu
and Fedora have different "religious" philosophies but this is
reality

without getting too in the the actual "religion" of FOSS and the 4
foundations of Fedora.


Novice computer users do not use Linux, and even worse, the vast
majority of novice users do not use free software, not even Inkscape on
OS X or Windows. I believe everyone is entitled to free software,
especially those who don't have access to proprietary tools that could
make their lives better for example, economic reasons. I and I believe
many others in Fedora would like to help these folks enjoy software
freedom just as all of us privileged users are able to. The bar should
not be set so high as it is right now.


Quote "Without release number? what if you have both Rawhide and 17
installed?
I think it should be Fedora $number"

So a "novice user" would have Rawhide installed?


A novice user would not have Rawhide installed, but novice users are
not the only people using Fedora. Novice users by default would not see
GRUB on their system because it is not displayed by default - you have
to hit either esc or F2 i think to see it. However, novice users *will*
see 'Fedora 17' or whatnot when they try to boot their Live USB key
because they have a timeout built-in so the boot menu always displays. I
believe the same code that displays the name of the kernel in grub2 does
so in syslinux (What's used for the live usb bootmenu) as well, so I am
pretty sure they should be consistent across boot loaders.


Having taught some pretty bright high school students how to use
Inkscape and Gimp using a classroom full of Live USB booted Fedoras, I
can say from experience there are a lot of pitfalls to making the
bootloader screen anything but simple if we want to make Fedora
accessible to a more diverse community.



A novice user just wants it to "work" "out of the box".

I mean it's really that simple.


No, it's not. Because every user has a different thing they are trying
to do. Say user 1 wants to do "X" and users 2 wants to do "Y". If you
make "X" work out-of-the-box, then maybe "Y" necessarily cannot work out
of the box. (example, X = printing to a network printer without hassle,
Y = not getting hacked because you have no firewall and having important
data stolen.)


~m
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