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Old 06-20-2012, 07:25 AM
Elad Alfassa
 
Default Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 10:18 AM, Dan Mashal <dan.mashal@gmail.com> wrote:


Quote: "Simply because we want to make Fedora easier to use. For novice users, the kernel versions are just noise, they mean nothing, and probably cause a lot of confusion. Especially if they dual-boot, they wouldn't know what to choose, and might actually boot an older kernel regularly.


Furthermore, you can always revert to the current behaviour by simply editing some configuration files."
If you wanted to make it easier for "novice users" then why do novice users have to do so much work out of the box to get stuff working? This is such a minor fix for "novice users".*
Novice users will not need to change the configuration, it will work out of the box and will be easier to use. I see no reason to change the configuration, but in case some advanced users don't like this change, they can customize their boot menu as the see fit.



"Novice users" use Ubuntu. Think about why. I understand that Ubuntu and Fedora have different "religious" philosophies but this is reality without getting too in the the actual "religion" of FOSS and the 4 foundations of Fedora.
I disagree with you on that. If it is true, then we should just stop all UX design efforts we do, because all Fedora users are clearly experts. We can even drop the GUI, cause everyone who uses Fedora uses terminal commands all day.



Quote "Without release number? what if you have both Rawhide and 17 installed?
I think it should be Fedora $number"
So a "novice user" would have Rawhide installed?
We want it to be usable both to novice and advanced users to use Fedora easily. having the release number won't mean anything unless you have multiple releases of Fedora



A novice user just wants it to "work" "out of the box".
I mean it's really that simple.

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 12:09 AM, Elad Alfassa <elad@fedoraproject.org> wrote:




On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 5:08 AM, Dan Mashal <dan.mashal@gmail.com> wrote:




Personal opinion from a longtime fedora user:


1) Why do I have to go to a separate menu to choose a different kernel? Granted, I don't often have to choose an older or custom kernel but "If it ain't broke don't fix it."




Simply because we want to make Fedora easier to use. For novice users, the kernel versions are just noise, they mean nothing, and probably cause a lot of confusion. Especially if they dual-boot, they wouldn't know what to choose, and might actually boot an older kernel regularly.



Furthermore, you can always revert to the current behaviour by simply editing some configuration files.





2) It should just be "Fedora".

Without release number? what if you have both Rawhide and 17 installed?
I think it should be Fedora $number





3) I don't like the way the grub menu looks right now with or without the theme. I like the old text non ubuntu/debian looking grub menu but that's just the oldskool person in me talking.*




Well, I like how it looks with the theme, but if you don't like it you could always make your own theme to make it look like you want, or talk with upstream grub and explain to them why you think the default doesn't look good.





EOF


Dan

On Jun 19, 2012 1:07 AM, "Elad Alfassa" <elad@fedoraproject.org> wrote:



On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Máirín Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> Hi Elad,

>

> On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 18:07 +0300, Elad Alfassa wrote:

>> refer to this thread in -devel:

>> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-June/168712.html

>>

>> As I understand, by design, we wanted the older kernels to appear in

>> the "Advanced options" menu, but right now, it breaks every time you

>> run a kernel update.

>

> Yeh, it definitely sounds like broken behavior. Maybe we should get

> together with Josh Boyer and Peter Jones and see if we can't figure out

> some way to have older kernels go under the submenu.

>

>> Also, the string Fedora Linux is kinda wrong, cause the OS is called

>> Fedora.

>> It should be something like Fedora (with Linux kernel version here).

>

>> What is the stand of the design team on this?

>

> Well, fwiw, I think you're correct, it should just be 'Fedora' (Maybe

> Fedora + $RELEASE_NUMBER) not 'Fedora Linux.' However, I think the

> kernel versions should be in the submenu with, if I understand

> correctly, the older kernels listed out, but the newest one should just

> say Fedora. Is that too extreme?

Sounds reasonable. Show kernel versions only when they are really needed.

>

> ~m

>

>

> _______________________________________________

> design-team mailing list

> design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team







--

-Elad Alfassa.

_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team

_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team



--

-Elad Alfassa.



_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team



_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team


--

-Elad Alfassa.


_______________________________________________
design-team mailing list
design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
 
Old 06-20-2012, 07:26 AM
Elad Alfassa
 
Default Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Dan Mashal <dan.mashal@gmail.com> wrote:

To further add to my previous email, don't forget about your core user base. Since you are aiming for the "novice user" what happens to the "expert/intermediate user base"?
Do you just neglect them and they just accept all the changes you make in order to make Fedora more "Novice friendly"?*


So what happens to the guy that's been doing things the way it's been done for 10+ years and you change it on him and he has to relearn everything all over again?
You now just turned and intermediate/expert user into a novice user. I find that counterproductive.
Oh really? I don't see how having a submenu for older kernel versions will make expert users need to "relearn" anything.



Just shedding a different way of thinking on the matter. I respect everyone's contributions I'm just making my own personal opinion and voice heard since that what is so awesome about this community is that I can say how I feel and contribute my opinion while it may not be taken as "Oh my god this guy is so right what were we thinking?" it's definitely something to think about.


Thanks,Dan
On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 12:18 AM, Dan Mashal <dan.mashal@gmail.com> wrote:



Quote: "Simply because we want to make Fedora easier to use. For novice users, the kernel versions are just noise, they mean nothing, and probably cause a lot of confusion. Especially if they dual-boot, they wouldn't know what to choose, and might actually boot an older kernel regularly.



Furthermore, you can always revert to the current behaviour by simply editing some configuration files."
If you wanted to make it easier for "novice users" then why do novice users have to do so much work out of the box to get stuff working? This is such a minor fix for "novice users".*



"Novice users" use Ubuntu. Think about why. I understand that Ubuntu and Fedora have different "religious" philosophies but this is reality without getting too in the the actual "religion" of FOSS and the 4 foundations of Fedora.



Quote "Without release number? what if you have both Rawhide and 17 installed?
I think it should be Fedora $number"
So a "novice user" would have Rawhide installed?



A novice user just wants it to "work" "out of the box".
I mean it's really that simple.

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 12:09 AM, Elad Alfassa <elad@fedoraproject.org> wrote:




On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 5:08 AM, Dan Mashal <dan.mashal@gmail.com> wrote:





Personal opinion from a longtime fedora user:


1) Why do I have to go to a separate menu to choose a different kernel? Granted, I don't often have to choose an older or custom kernel but "If it ain't broke don't fix it."





Simply because we want to make Fedora easier to use. For novice users, the kernel versions are just noise, they mean nothing, and probably cause a lot of confusion. Especially if they dual-boot, they wouldn't know what to choose, and might actually boot an older kernel regularly.




Furthermore, you can always revert to the current behaviour by simply editing some configuration files.






2) It should just be "Fedora".

Without release number? what if you have both Rawhide and 17 installed?
I think it should be Fedora $number






3) I don't like the way the grub menu looks right now with or without the theme. I like the old text non ubuntu/debian looking grub menu but that's just the oldskool person in me talking.*





Well, I like how it looks with the theme, but if you don't like it you could always make your own theme to make it look like you want, or talk with upstream grub and explain to them why you think the default doesn't look good.






EOF


Dan

On Jun 19, 2012 1:07 AM, "Elad Alfassa" <elad@fedoraproject.org> wrote:




On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Máirín Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> Hi Elad,

>

> On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 18:07 +0300, Elad Alfassa wrote:

>> refer to this thread in -devel:

>> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-June/168712.html

>>

>> As I understand, by design, we wanted the older kernels to appear in

>> the "Advanced options" menu, but right now, it breaks every time you

>> run a kernel update.

>

> Yeh, it definitely sounds like broken behavior. Maybe we should get

> together with Josh Boyer and Peter Jones and see if we can't figure out

> some way to have older kernels go under the submenu.

>

>> Also, the string Fedora Linux is kinda wrong, cause the OS is called

>> Fedora.

>> It should be something like Fedora (with Linux kernel version here).

>

>> What is the stand of the design team on this?

>

> Well, fwiw, I think you're correct, it should just be 'Fedora' (Maybe

> Fedora + $RELEASE_NUMBER) not 'Fedora Linux.' However, I think the

> kernel versions should be in the submenu with, if I understand

> correctly, the older kernels listed out, but the newest one should just

> say Fedora. Is that too extreme?

Sounds reasonable. Show kernel versions only when they are really needed.

>

> ~m

>

>

> _______________________________________________

> design-team mailing list

> design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team







--

-Elad Alfassa.

_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team

_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team



--

-Elad Alfassa.



_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team





_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team


--

-Elad Alfassa.


_______________________________________________
design-team mailing list
design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
 
Old 06-20-2012, 07:40 AM
Dan Mashal
 
Default Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective

I'm thinking of the bigger picture besides this submenu. Again, without literally watching every single dev change and being on the QA team how am I supposed to know everything that's changed.
"Oh btw in Fedora 18 you have to go to advanced boot options to boot an older kernel now. Yeah I know, we've been able to do this for 20 years now since the dawn of time but they think it's better for novice users this way."

Just 1 example of many things. You can't expect Fedora to be a distro that you can really settle and get "used to" when it's constantly changing.
I know this is the whole point of the whole distro, to be "bleeding edge" and have the latest technologies in our awesome distro.

Again, I go with a "If it aint broke don't fix it" mentality into things.
In my daily life I'm a sysadmin. Figuring out how to do something on RHEL 5 vs RHEL 6 vs CentOS 5 vs CentOS 6 vs Fedora 13 Fedora 14 Fedora 15 Fedora 16 Fedora 17 Fedora 18 and what's different between each and every single one is annoying in every day life at work.

"Oh yeah so dude on Fedora 17 they moved to systemd. That service command doesn't work the same way and neither does chkconfig either anymore. Sorry bro deal with it."

Dan

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 12:26 AM, Elad Alfassa <elad@fedoraproject.org> wrote:



On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Dan Mashal <dan.mashal@gmail.com> wrote:


To further add to my previous email, don't forget about your core user base. Since you are aiming for the "novice user" what happens to the "expert/intermediate user base"?
Do you just neglect them and they just accept all the changes you make in order to make Fedora more "Novice friendly"?*



So what happens to the guy that's been doing things the way it's been done for 10+ years and you change it on him and he has to relearn everything all over again?
You now just turned and intermediate/expert user into a novice user. I find that counterproductive.

Oh really? I don't see how having a submenu for older kernel versions will make expert users need to "relearn" anything.




Just shedding a different way of thinking on the matter. I respect everyone's contributions I'm just making my own personal opinion and voice heard since that what is so awesome about this community is that I can say how I feel and contribute my opinion while it may not be taken as "Oh my god this guy is so right what were we thinking?" it's definitely something to think about.



Thanks,Dan
On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 12:18 AM, Dan Mashal <dan.mashal@gmail.com> wrote:




Quote: "Simply because we want to make Fedora easier to use. For novice users, the kernel versions are just noise, they mean nothing, and probably cause a lot of confusion. Especially if they dual-boot, they wouldn't know what to choose, and might actually boot an older kernel regularly.




Furthermore, you can always revert to the current behaviour by simply editing some configuration files."
If you wanted to make it easier for "novice users" then why do novice users have to do so much work out of the box to get stuff working? This is such a minor fix for "novice users".*




"Novice users" use Ubuntu. Think about why. I understand that Ubuntu and Fedora have different "religious" philosophies but this is reality without getting too in the the actual "religion" of FOSS and the 4 foundations of Fedora.




Quote "Without release number? what if you have both Rawhide and 17 installed?
I think it should be Fedora $number"
So a "novice user" would have Rawhide installed?




A novice user just wants it to "work" "out of the box".
I mean it's really that simple.

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 12:09 AM, Elad Alfassa <elad@fedoraproject.org> wrote:





On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 5:08 AM, Dan Mashal <dan.mashal@gmail.com> wrote:






Personal opinion from a longtime fedora user:


1) Why do I have to go to a separate menu to choose a different kernel? Granted, I don't often have to choose an older or custom kernel but "If it ain't broke don't fix it."






Simply because we want to make Fedora easier to use. For novice users, the kernel versions are just noise, they mean nothing, and probably cause a lot of confusion. Especially if they dual-boot, they wouldn't know what to choose, and might actually boot an older kernel regularly.





Furthermore, you can always revert to the current behaviour by simply editing some configuration files.







2) It should just be "Fedora".

Without release number? what if you have both Rawhide and 17 installed?
I think it should be Fedora $number







3) I don't like the way the grub menu looks right now with or without the theme. I like the old text non ubuntu/debian looking grub menu but that's just the oldskool person in me talking.*






Well, I like how it looks with the theme, but if you don't like it you could always make your own theme to make it look like you want, or talk with upstream grub and explain to them why you think the default doesn't look good.







EOF


Dan

On Jun 19, 2012 1:07 AM, "Elad Alfassa" <elad@fedoraproject.org> wrote:





On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Máirín Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> Hi Elad,

>

> On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 18:07 +0300, Elad Alfassa wrote:

>> refer to this thread in -devel:

>> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-June/168712.html

>>

>> As I understand, by design, we wanted the older kernels to appear in

>> the "Advanced options" menu, but right now, it breaks every time you

>> run a kernel update.

>

> Yeh, it definitely sounds like broken behavior. Maybe we should get

> together with Josh Boyer and Peter Jones and see if we can't figure out

> some way to have older kernels go under the submenu.

>

>> Also, the string Fedora Linux is kinda wrong, cause the OS is called

>> Fedora.

>> It should be something like Fedora (with Linux kernel version here).

>

>> What is the stand of the design team on this?

>

> Well, fwiw, I think you're correct, it should just be 'Fedora' (Maybe

> Fedora + $RELEASE_NUMBER) not 'Fedora Linux.' However, I think the

> kernel versions should be in the submenu with, if I understand

> correctly, the older kernels listed out, but the newest one should just

> say Fedora. Is that too extreme?

Sounds reasonable. Show kernel versions only when they are really needed.

>

> ~m

>

>

> _______________________________________________

> design-team mailing list

> design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team







--

-Elad Alfassa.

_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team

_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team



--

-Elad Alfassa.



_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team





_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team



--

-Elad Alfassa.



_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team


_______________________________________________
design-team mailing list
design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
 
Old 06-20-2012, 07:59 AM
Frank Murphy
 
Default Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective

On 20/06/12 08:09, Elad Alfassa wrote:



Simply because we want to make Fedora easier to use. For novice users,
the kernel versions are just noise, they mean nothing, and probably
cause a lot of confusion. Especially if they dual-boot, they wouldn't
know what to choose, and might actually boot an older kernel regularly.
Furthermore, you can always revert to the current behaviour by simply
editing some configuration files.


Well if you can show me what to edit to keep all kernels showing.
I would appreciate it.
I believe it's in: /etc/grub.d/10_linux
But not being a scripter


--
Regards,
Frank
"Jack of all, fubars"
_______________________________________________
design-team mailing list
design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
 
Old 06-20-2012, 09:00 AM
Martin Sourada
 
Default Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective

On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 00:40:38 -0700
Dan Mashal wrote:
> Again, I go with a "If it aint broke don't fix it" mentality into
> things.
>
> In my daily life I'm a sysadmin. Figuring out how to do something on
> RHEL 5 vs RHEL 6 vs CentOS 5 vs CentOS 6 vs Fedora 13 Fedora 14
> Fedora 15 Fedora 16 Fedora 17 Fedora 18 and what's different between
> each and every single one is annoying in every day life at work.
>
Yeah, it is annoying, but rejecting a change *only* because it is
change isn't a strong argument. With such reasoning there wouldn't be
PCs in the first place (and btw. steam engine also works, doesn't
it, yet trains are now using diesel, if they are not using
electricity)... Still I think the changes between Fedora/Red Hat
releases are small compared to differences between
Fedora/Debian/(Open)Suse or between various M$ operating systems... So
either deal with it or decrease the number of concurrently "supported"
releases to sane number.

You know, people who use Fedora (especially those that contribute) often
multi-boot and, frankly, menu like the following one (the kernel
versions are semi-random picks of sane numbers out of my head) isn't
exactly helpful:
* Fedora (kernel-3.6.0-1.fc17)
* Fedora (kernel-3.5.7-46.fc17)
* Fedora (kernel-3.5.7-42.fc17)
* Fedora (kernel-3.6.0-1.fc16)
* Fedora (kernel-3.5.7-46.fc16)
* Fedora (kernel-3.5.7-42.fc16)
* CentOS (kernel-2.16.31.4-35.el5)
* CentOS (kernel-2.16.31.3-30.el5)
* CentOS (kernel-2.16.31.2-21.el5)
* Microsoft Windows
* Memtest

IMHO it is broken and always was (at the very least it always annoyed
the hell out of me that fedora release number wasn't present). But
still, currently it is more broken, because grub2-mkconfig writes
sub-menued items, while kernel rpm updates grub2 still using the above
method, which leads to combination of sub-menus and non-sub-menued
items...

Cheers,
Martin
_______________________________________________
design-team mailing list
design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
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Old 06-20-2012, 09:58 AM
Dan Mashal
 
Default Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective

I use VMs so I don't multi boot. I bypass this problem completely.
In regards to your quote:*
"Yeah, it is annoying, but rejecting a change *only* because it is
change isn't a strong argument. With such reasoning there wouldn't bePCs in the first place (and btw. steam engine also works, doesn'tit, yet trains are now using diesel, if they are not using
electricity)... Still I think the changes between Fedora/Red Hatreleases are small compared to differences betweenFedora/Debian/(Open)Suse or between various M$ operating systems... So
either deal with it or decrease the number of concurrently "supported"releases to sane number.You know, people who use Fedora (especially those that contribute) often
multi-boot and, frankly, menu like the following one (the kernelversions are semi-random picks of sane numbers out of my head) isn'texactly helpful:
** Fedora (kernel-3.6.0-1.fc17)** Fedora (kernel-3.5.7-46.fc17)** Fedora (kernel-3.5.7-42.fc17)** Fedora (kernel-3.6.0-1.fc16)
** Fedora (kernel-3.5.7-46.fc16)** Fedora (kernel-3.5.7-42.fc16)** CentOS (kernel-2.16.31.4-35.el5)** CentOS (kernel-2.16.31.3-30.el5)
** CentOS (kernel-2.16.31.2-21.el5)** Microsoft Windows** Memtest"

I am a Fedora Packager, QA/Bug-triager, ambassador, and hopefully soon to be future design team member. I've been running Linux since 2.0.26. These are just my opinions. Do what you will. I have seen nothing but refutation from your side at this point.

fasaccount: vicodanpackage maintained: BitchX
Thanks,Dan




On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 2:00 AM, Martin Sourada <martin.sourada@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 00:40:38 -0700

Dan Mashal wrote:

> Again, I go with a "If it aint broke don't fix it" mentality into

> things.

>

> In my daily life I'm a sysadmin. Figuring out how to do something on

> RHEL 5 vs RHEL 6 vs CentOS 5 vs CentOS 6 vs Fedora 13 Fedora 14

> Fedora 15 Fedora 16 Fedora 17 Fedora 18 and what's different between

> each and every single one is annoying in every day life at work.

>

Yeah, it is annoying, but rejecting a change *only* because it is

change isn't a strong argument. With such reasoning there wouldn't be

PCs in the first place (and btw. steam engine also works, doesn't

it, yet trains are now using diesel, if they are not using

electricity)... Still I think the changes between Fedora/Red Hat

releases are small compared to differences between

Fedora/Debian/(Open)Suse or between various M$ operating systems... So

either deal with it or decrease the number of concurrently "supported"

releases to sane number.



You know, people who use Fedora (especially those that contribute) often

multi-boot and, frankly, menu like the following one (the kernel

versions are semi-random picks of sane numbers out of my head) isn't

exactly helpful:

** Fedora (kernel-3.6.0-1.fc17)

** Fedora (kernel-3.5.7-46.fc17)

** Fedora (kernel-3.5.7-42.fc17)

** Fedora (kernel-3.6.0-1.fc16)

** Fedora (kernel-3.5.7-46.fc16)

** Fedora (kernel-3.5.7-42.fc16)

** CentOS (kernel-2.16.31.4-35.el5)

** CentOS (kernel-2.16.31.3-30.el5)

** CentOS (kernel-2.16.31.2-21.el5)

** Microsoft Windows

** Memtest



IMHO it is broken and always was (at the very least it always annoyed

the hell out of me that fedora release number wasn't present). But

still, currently it is more broken, because grub2-mkconfig writes

sub-menued items, while kernel rpm updates grub2 still using the above

method, which leads to combination of sub-menus and non-sub-menued

items...



Cheers,

Martin

_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team

_______________________________________________
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https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
 
Old 06-20-2012, 03:03 PM
Kirk Bridger
 
Default Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective

Perhaps we can put some additional solution ideas forward.



As a quasi-novice kernel user I always found it helpful to have the
kernel versions visible.* When I update Fedora and the nvidia blob
causes X to fail, I like being able to choose older versions because
I can't do anything else.* When a pre-upgrade ends up with a
non-working version, I like to be able to run an older version to
stay productive while I research the problem.



I'm not an expert user but I don't think I'm novice either.* I don't
see why we need to hide the older versions behind another
menu, just perhaps make it more clear that the old versions are
still functional but are not the latest on the machine.



Novice users have the "out" of saying "I don't know what this all
means but I know I want to launch the most current version".* And if
they're dropped back here after a failure or two trying the current
version they can try the older versions.



This all assumes that we're limited to the current console-style
menu.* If we can use HTML/CSS or some other layout and styling we
can make this info much more parse-able with styling and different
font sizes/layout.* If we can do more than just console can someone
send a screenshot of what we can do, and maybe we can mock something
up?



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Welcome to Fedora 17 (BeefyMiracle)



Current Versions

Fedora 17 (kernel-3.6.0-1.fc17)



Superceded Versions

Fedora 17 (kernel-3.5.20-3.fc17)

Fedora 17 (kernel-3.5.20-2.fc17)

Fedora 16 (kernel-3.2.10-4.fc16)



Other Operating Systems

Microsoft Windows 7

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





Happy to hear thoughts on this approach.



Kirk



On 06/20/2012 02:00 AM, Martin Sourada wrote:

On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 00:40:38 -0700
Dan Mashal wrote:


Again, I go with a "If it aint broke don't fix it" mentality into
things.

In my daily life I'm a sysadmin. Figuring out how to do something on
RHEL 5 vs RHEL 6 vs CentOS 5 vs CentOS 6 vs Fedora 13 Fedora 14
Fedora 15 Fedora 16 Fedora 17 Fedora 18 and what's different between
each and every single one is annoying in every day life at work.



Yeah, it is annoying, but rejecting a change *only* because it is
change isn't a strong argument. With such reasoning there wouldn't be
PCs in the first place (and btw. steam engine also works, doesn't
it, yet trains are now using diesel, if they are not using
electricity)... Still I think the changes between Fedora/Red Hat
releases are small compared to differences between
Fedora/Debian/(Open)Suse or between various M$ operating systems... So
either deal with it or decrease the number of concurrently "supported"
releases to sane number.

You know, people who use Fedora (especially those that contribute) often
multi-boot and, frankly, menu like the following one (the kernel
versions are semi-random picks of sane numbers out of my head) isn't
exactly helpful:
* Fedora (kernel-3.6.0-1.fc17)
* Fedora (kernel-3.5.7-46.fc17)
* Fedora (kernel-3.5.7-42.fc17)
* Fedora (kernel-3.6.0-1.fc16)
* Fedora (kernel-3.5.7-46.fc16)
* Fedora (kernel-3.5.7-42.fc16)
* CentOS (kernel-2.16.31.4-35.el5)
* CentOS (kernel-2.16.31.3-30.el5)
* CentOS (kernel-2.16.31.2-21.el5)
* Microsoft Windows
* Memtest

IMHO it is broken and always was (at the very least it always annoyed
the hell out of me that fedora release number wasn't present). But
still, currently it is more broken, because grub2-mkconfig writes
sub-menued items, while kernel rpm updates grub2 still using the above
method, which leads to combination of sub-menus and non-sub-menued
items...

Cheers,
Martin
_______________________________________________
design-team mailing list
design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team



_______________________________________________
design-team mailing list
design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
 
Old 06-20-2012, 05:03 PM
Dan Mashal
 
Default Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective

+1

On Jun 20, 2012 8:03 AM, "Kirk Bridger" <kirk@thebside.ca> wrote:







Perhaps we can put some additional solution ideas forward.



As a quasi-novice kernel user I always found it helpful to have the
kernel versions visible.* When I update Fedora and the nvidia blob
causes X to fail, I like being able to choose older versions because
I can't do anything else.* When a pre-upgrade ends up with a
non-working version, I like to be able to run an older version to
stay productive while I research the problem.



I'm not an expert user but I don't think I'm novice either.* I don't
see why we need to hide the older versions behind another
menu, just perhaps make it more clear that the old versions are
still functional but are not the latest on the machine.



Novice users have the "out" of saying "I don't know what this all
means but I know I want to launch the most current version".* And if
they're dropped back here after a failure or two trying the current
version they can try the older versions.



This all assumes that we're limited to the current console-style
menu.* If we can use HTML/CSS or some other layout and styling we
can make this info much more parse-able with styling and different
font sizes/layout.* If we can do more than just console can someone
send a screenshot of what we can do, and maybe we can mock something
up?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Welcome to Fedora 17 (BeefyMiracle)



Current Versions

Fedora 17 (kernel-3.6.0-1.fc17)



Superceded Versions

Fedora 17 (kernel-3.5.20-3.fc17)

Fedora 17 (kernel-3.5.20-2.fc17)

Fedora 16 (kernel-3.2.10-4.fc16)



Other Operating Systems

Microsoft Windows 7

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





Happy to hear thoughts on this approach.



Kirk



On 06/20/2012 02:00 AM, Martin Sourada wrote:

On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 00:40:38 -0700
Dan Mashal wrote:


Again, I go with a "If it aint broke don't fix it" mentality into
things.

In my daily life I'm a sysadmin. Figuring out how to do something on
RHEL 5 vs RHEL 6 vs CentOS 5 vs CentOS 6 vs Fedora 13 Fedora 14
Fedora 15 Fedora 16 Fedora 17 Fedora 18 and what's different between
each and every single one is annoying in every day life at work.



Yeah, it is annoying, but rejecting a change *only* because it is
change isn't a strong argument. With such reasoning there wouldn't be
PCs in the first place (and btw. steam engine also works, doesn't
it, yet trains are now using diesel, if they are not using
electricity)... Still I think the changes between Fedora/Red Hat
releases are small compared to differences between
Fedora/Debian/(Open)Suse or between various M$ operating systems... So
either deal with it or decrease the number of concurrently "supported"
releases to sane number.

You know, people who use Fedora (especially those that contribute) often
multi-boot and, frankly, menu like the following one (the kernel
versions are semi-random picks of sane numbers out of my head) isn't
exactly helpful:
* Fedora (kernel-3.6.0-1.fc17)
* Fedora (kernel-3.5.7-46.fc17)
* Fedora (kernel-3.5.7-42.fc17)
* Fedora (kernel-3.6.0-1.fc16)
* Fedora (kernel-3.5.7-46.fc16)
* Fedora (kernel-3.5.7-42.fc16)
* CentOS (kernel-2.16.31.4-35.el5)
* CentOS (kernel-2.16.31.3-30.el5)
* CentOS (kernel-2.16.31.2-21.el5)
* Microsoft Windows
* Memtest

IMHO it is broken and always was (at the very least it always annoyed
the hell out of me that fedora release number wasn't present). But
still, currently it is more broken, because grub2-mkconfig writes
sub-menued items, while kernel rpm updates grub2 still using the above
method, which leads to combination of sub-menus and non-sub-menued
items...

Cheers,
Martin
_______________________________________________
design-team mailing list
design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team




_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team

_______________________________________________
design-team mailing list
design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
 
Old 06-20-2012, 07:39 PM
Martin Sourada
 
Default Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective

On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 08:03:35 -0700
Kirk Bridger wrote:

>
> Perhaps we can put some additional solution ideas forward.
>
> As a quasi-novice kernel user I always found it helpful to have the
> kernel versions visible. When I update Fedora and the nvidia blob
> causes X to fail, I like being able to choose older versions because
> I can't do anything else. When a pre-upgrade ends up with a
> non-working version, I like to be able to run an older version to
> stay productive while I research the problem.
>
> I'm not an expert user but I don't think I'm novice either. I don't
> see why we need to *hide* the older versions behind another menu,
> just perhaps make it more clear that the old versions are still
> functional but are not the latest on the machine.
>
> Novice users have the "out" of saying "I don't know what this all
> means but I know I want to launch the most current version". And if
> they're dropped back here after a failure or two trying the current
> version they can try the older versions.
>
> This all assumes that we're limited to the current console-style
> menu. If we can use HTML/CSS or some other layout and styling we can
> make this info much more parse-able with styling and different font
> sizes/layout. If we can do more than just console can someone send a
> screenshot of what we can do, and maybe we can mock something up?
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Welcome to Fedora 17 (BeefyMiracle)
>
> *Current Versions*
> Fedora 17 (kernel-3.6.0-1.fc17)
> *
> Superceded Versions*
> Fedora 17 (kernel-3.5.20-3.fc17)
> Fedora 17 (kernel-3.5.20-2.fc17)
> Fedora 16 (kernel-3.2.10-4.fc16)
>
> *Other Operating Systems*
> Microsoft Windows 7
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
IMHO not a bad idea. I have a few notes though:
* Fedora 16 and Fedora 17 should be considered separate operating
systems (*if* they use different root).
* Boot loader should behave look like boot-loader not like an already
running operating system (the "Welcome to Fedora 17" text is
misleading)
* Why have Fedora stylistically higher priority than other operating
systems?

IMHO, there are multiple different types of users, who use fedora,
let's divide them into few different groups.

1. Dual booters -- Fedora and Windows (or Mac)
==============================================
These people probably just want to boot the latest version unless
something is broken. They might or might not know what the kernel
versions mean. It might be better to "hide" older kernels in submenu
(or if grub2 allows some better css-like way, why not?)

2. *nix enthusiasts/developers -- multi-booters
==============================================
These people will probably have multiple operating systems installed,
maybe even various versions of fedora. Let's say they have (for example)
Fedora Rawhide, Fedora 17, Debian 6.0, FreeBSD 9 and Arch Linux. They
know very well what kernel is, but if all installed kernels are listed
there, the list gets rather large and it gets hard to quickly find the
latest kernel. Especially for the two Fedoras that you can tell apart
only by the fc18 vs. fc17 in kernel release number... While it would
make selecting *older* kernel versions slower, I think it would be
better to *hide* the older kernels in submenu, thus making the main
menu easier to navigate. IMHO the gain of quicker selection of most
recent kernel for each release would outweigh the less frequent slow
down introduced by submenus.

3. Massive virtualization
=========================
These people have only one host operating system, the rest is in
virtual machines. IMHO they are the only group that would *not* benefit
from switch to sub-menus.

IMHO, the gains to the first two groups outweigh the loss of the third
group, but well, others might disagree. That's why we discuss things,
right?

So how would the bootloader screen would look like?

----------------------------------------------------
Welcome to GRUB 2
Select an OS to boot:

* Fedora Rawhide (with linux-3.6.0-23.fc18)
* Fedora 17 (with linux-3.6.0-23.fc17)
* Debian 6.0 (with linux-2.6.28.3-23)
* Microsoft Windows 7
--------
* Fedora Rawhide (Rescue)
- older kernels listed in this submenu, and possibly some special
rescue mode(s)
* Fedora 17 (Rescue)
- older kernels listed in this submenu, and possibly some special
rescue mode(s)
* Debian 6.0 (Rescue)
- older kernels listed in this submenu, and possibly some special
rescue mode(s)
* Microsoft Windows 7
- if we can only chainload win 7, this would not make sense, however
if we could run rescue modes for win from grub, this where it would
be.

----------------------------------------------------


THanks,
Martin
_______________________________________________
design-team mailing list
design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
 
Old 06-20-2012, 07:56 PM
Onyeibo Oku
 
Default Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective

+20



On Wed, 2012-06-20 at 21:39 +0200, Martin Sourada wrote:


On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 08:03:35 -0700
Kirk Bridger wrote:

>
> Perhaps we can put some additional solution ideas forward.
>
> As a quasi-novice kernel user I always found it helpful to have the
> kernel versions visible. When I update Fedora and the nvidia blob
> causes X to fail, I like being able to choose older versions because
> I can't do anything else. When a pre-upgrade ends up with a
> non-working version, I like to be able to run an older version to
> stay productive while I research the problem.
>
> I'm not an expert user but I don't think I'm novice either. I don't
> see why we need to *hide* the older versions behind another menu,
> just perhaps make it more clear that the old versions are still
> functional but are not the latest on the machine.
>
> Novice users have the "out" of saying "I don't know what this all
> means but I know I want to launch the most current version". And if
> they're dropped back here after a failure or two trying the current
> version they can try the older versions.
>
> This all assumes that we're limited to the current console-style
> menu. If we can use HTML/CSS or some other layout and styling we can
> make this info much more parse-able with styling and different font
> sizes/layout. If we can do more than just console can someone send a
> screenshot of what we can do, and maybe we can mock something up?
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Welcome to Fedora 17 (BeefyMiracle)
>
> *Current Versions*
> Fedora 17 (kernel-3.6.0-1.fc17)
> *
> Superceded Versions*
> Fedora 17 (kernel-3.5.20-3.fc17)
> Fedora 17 (kernel-3.5.20-2.fc17)
> Fedora 16 (kernel-3.2.10-4.fc16)
>
> *Other Operating Systems*
> Microsoft Windows 7
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
IMHO not a bad idea. I have a few notes though:
* Fedora 16 and Fedora 17 should be considered separate operating
systems (*if* they use different root).
* Boot loader should behave look like boot-loader not like an already
running operating system (the "Welcome to Fedora 17" text is
misleading)
* Why have Fedora stylistically higher priority than other operating
systems?

IMHO, there are multiple different types of users, who use fedora,
let's divide them into few different groups.

1. Dual booters -- Fedora and Windows (or Mac)
==============================================
These people probably just want to boot the latest version unless
something is broken. They might or might not know what the kernel
versions mean. It might be better to "hide" older kernels in submenu
(or if grub2 allows some better css-like way, why not?)

2. *nix enthusiasts/developers -- multi-booters
==============================================
These people will probably have multiple operating systems installed,
maybe even various versions of fedora. Let's say they have (for example)
Fedora Rawhide, Fedora 17, Debian 6.0, FreeBSD 9 and Arch Linux. They
know very well what kernel is, but if all installed kernels are listed
there, the list gets rather large and it gets hard to quickly find the
latest kernel. Especially for the two Fedoras that you can tell apart
only by the fc18 vs. fc17 in kernel release number... While it would
make selecting *older* kernel versions slower, I think it would be
better to *hide* the older kernels in submenu, thus making the main
menu easier to navigate. IMHO the gain of quicker selection of most
recent kernel for each release would outweigh the less frequent slow
down introduced by submenus.

3. Massive virtualization
=========================
These people have only one host operating system, the rest is in
virtual machines. IMHO they are the only group that would *not* benefit
from switch to sub-menus.

IMHO, the gains to the first two groups outweigh the loss of the third
group, but well, others might disagree. That's why we discuss things,
right?

So how would the bootloader screen would look like?

----------------------------------------------------
Welcome to GRUB 2
Select an OS to boot:

* Fedora Rawhide (with linux-3.6.0-23.fc18)
* Fedora 17 (with linux-3.6.0-23.fc17)
* Debian 6.0 (with linux-2.6.28.3-23)
* Microsoft Windows 7
--------
* Fedora Rawhide (Rescue)
- older kernels listed in this submenu, and possibly some special
rescue mode(s)
* Fedora 17 (Rescue)
- older kernels listed in this submenu, and possibly some special
rescue mode(s)
* Debian 6.0 (Rescue)
- older kernels listed in this submenu, and possibly some special
rescue mode(s)
* Microsoft Windows 7
- if we can only chainload win 7, this would not make sense, however
if we could run rescue modes for win from grub, this where it would
be.

----------------------------------------------------


THanks,
Martin
_______________________________________________
design-team mailing list
design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team








_______________________________________________
design-team mailing list
design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
 

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