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Old 12-20-2010, 04:57 PM
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

I think this is pretty easy, If GNOME 3.0 wallpaper must be there by
default, we could add in a new feature during bootup or just before a
users first login asking the user to choose between Fedora's Default
Wallpaper & GNOME 3.0 Default wallpaper. Here the user is King. Lets not
forget that GNOME's come a long way & we have some of our very own working
with them. Fedora has always been a platform for true open source
applications. Lets carry GNOME 3.0 along even though we could make
provisions for UNITY or even google chrome much later.


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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: GNOME background in Fedora 15 (Onyeibo Oku)
> 2. Re: GNOME background in Fedora 15 (Martin Sourada)
> 3. Call For Papers - 2011 World Congress on Mathematics and
> Statistics (WCMS 2011)
> 4. Re: GNOME background in Fedora 15 (Nicu Buculei)
> 5. Re: GNOME background in Fedora 15 (Jaroslav Reznik)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 03:09:14 +0100
> From: Onyeibo Oku <twohotis@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Design-team] GNOME background in Fedora 15
> To: Fedora Design Team <design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org>
> Message-ID: <4D0D694A.7020109@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> On 12/19/2010 03:02 AM, Jim Campbell wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> 2010/12/18 M?ir?n Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org
>> <mailto:duffy@fedoraproject.org>>
>>
>> On Sun, 2010-12-19 at 02:16 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote:
>> > No, no, you misunderstood. I don't imply we should ship to gnome
>> spins.
>> > We should either ship in F15 gnome as pristine as possible or
>> just do it
>> > they way we do it usually. Neither of these should of course
>> affect
>> > other spins and IMHO also not DVD install.
>>
>> Why? Again, you are proposing this all or nothing thinking and I
>> completely do not understand it. Can you please explain?
>>
>> > PS: I think we should slowly kill this thread, I'm running "out
>> of
>> > ammo", your arguments also haven't been strong enough to make me
>> change
>> > my mind and I wouldn't want to make this into a flame...
>>
>> We have to make a decision.
>>
>> ~m
>>
>>
>>
>> I think that the Fedora Project is in a good spot here in that the
>> default Gnome3 wallpaper is a shade of blue that coincides nicely with
>> the colors that Fedora uses anyway.
>>
>> The same cannot be said of OpenSUSE, though.
>>
>> Given the hubbub that is in Fedora where there isn't really a conflict
>> of colors, but other distros would likely have a conflict with the
>> colors, would upstream Gnome be willing to compromise on this? Would
>> upstream be willing to allow distros to create stripe-based wallpapers
>> that include the same design pattern, same degree of saturation, same
>> texture, etc., but use different distro-specific colors? After all,
>> could we really expect OpenSUSE to ship a blue theme? So much of their
>> artwork (website, icon set, metacity theme, etc.) is green. And I have
>> never seen a blue gecko. : (
>>
>> If we were able get a compromise like this, I think that there would be
>> greater likelihood of buy-in from the various the distros. They would be
>> representing and celebrating Gnome, but would retain key portions of
>> their own distro "self." Perhaps even Ubuntu would be willing to ship an
>> aubergine stripe-based theme as part of their wallpaper set (though, of
>> course, not as their default, as they are using Unity).
>>
>> This could also potentially benefit Gnome, as they could do something
>> like, "Different Colors, One Gnome," or something like that. The Gnome
>> brand identity could be visible in the stripes, while the distros get
>> their identity in the colors.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>
> That's what I thought too
> --
> Oku Onyeibo
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:twohot
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 10:40:15 +0100
> From: Martin Sourada <martin.sourada@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Design-team] GNOME background in Fedora 15
> To: Fedora Design Team <design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org>
> Message-ID: <1292751616.2356.178.camel@localhost.localdomain >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Sat, 2010-12-18 at 20:34 -0500, M?ir?n Duffy wrote:
>> On Sun, 2010-12-19 at 02:16 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote:
>> > No, no, you misunderstood. I don't imply we should ship to gnome
>> spins.
>> > We should either ship in F15 gnome as pristine as possible or just do
>> it
>> > they way we do it usually. Neither of these should of course affect
>> > other spins and IMHO also not DVD install.
>>
>> Why? Again, you are proposing this all or nothing thinking and I
>> completely do not understand it. Can you please explain?
>>
> Because I don't understand at all why change only the wallpaper. How
> does that help anyone. It's like doing something half-heartedly to me.
>
>> > PS: I think we should slowly kill this thread, I'm running "out of
>> > ammo", your arguments also haven't been strong enough to make me
>> change
>> > my mind and I wouldn't want to make this into a flame...
>>
>> We have to make a decision.
> Agreed. Seems to me like vote is the best option (probably FAS based as
> not everyone has time to attend an IRC meeting). As I already said,
> while I'm personally against granting this request, I wouldn't mind
> granting it if majority of our team is for it.
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 03:04:18 +0200
> From: "WCMS 2011" <admin@infomesr.org>
> Subject: [Design-team] Call For Papers - 2011 World Congress on
> Mathematics and Statistics
> To: design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 09:21:59 +0200
> From: Nicu Buculei <nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro>
> Subject: Re: [Design-team] GNOME background in Fedora 15
> To: Fedora Design Team <design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org>
> Message-ID: <4D0F0417.8020607@nicubunu.ro>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> On 12/17/2010 06:01 PM, Owen Taylor wrote:
>>
>> If the team doing the default Fedora desktop switched and did a GNOME
>> remix instead this cycle, who would do the default Fedora desktop?
>> (I'm sure you'd be happy to switch the default to KDE for this cycle,
>> but... ;-)
>
> Yes, if you do a remix, nobody will object on whatever branding you
> apply to it, as long as it is not our *default* download.
>
>> And how would we distinguish between the two different downloads when
>> presenting options to the user? We'd basically be offering the user the
>> choice between two different almost identical things because we couldn't
>> come to a decision.
>
> One is the default download, linked practically from everywhere and the
> other one is listed on the spins page, on the same level with everybody
> else.
>
> --
> nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 10:02:26 +0100
> From: Jaroslav Reznik <jreznik@redhat.com>
> Subject: Re: [Design-team] GNOME background in Fedora 15
> To: Fedora Design Team <design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org>
> Message-ID: <201012201002.26880.jreznik@redhat.com>
> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Saturday, December 18, 2010 02:23:52 am M?ir?n Duffy wrote:
>> Hi Martin,
>>
>> On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 22:28 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote:
>> > IMHO this would lessen Fedora's visual identity a lot. Imagine you
>> boot
>> > a F15 Desktop Live and what you see is almost pristine GNOME 3
>> desktop.
>> > Where's Fedora in it? Where's our own visual identity in it?
>>
>> Our visual identity would (if the proposal is accepted) be present on
>> the website, on the DVD disc labels and sleeves, in syslinux, in the
>> installer, in firstboot, in plymouth, and on the login screen. The
>> wallpaper we design will be the default for GDM.
>>
>> > Moreover,
>> >
>> > KDE shipped our wallpaper with the 4.0 release, why should we treat
>> > GNOME differently? Is it some new trend?
>>
>> I honestly don't remember the KDE SIG ever approaching us with this
>> request. And honestly why would they? - they aren't the default
>> download, so it's not up to this team, it's up to the KDE SIG what to
>> do. This team, the design team, has purview over the default wallpaper
>> in the default Fedora. Spins have always been able to change their
>> wallpapers as they've liked, and we've even designed alternative
>> wallpapers for them at their request (e.g., Education Spin and Security
>> Spin.)
>
> Actually I asked for something I proposed here - KDE was in the same
> situation
> one year ago... And I still think it's a good idea - to merge
> upstream/downstream branding - it would work best for both Gnome and KDE,
> it's
> long-term solution etc. I'll try to write down the proposal.
>
> But you said it - Gnome spin is now the default one - we should take care
> about
> our jewel.
>
> R.
>
>> > OK, so upstream wants to promote GNOME 3. I'm not a fan of gnome-shell
>> > (quite the contrary), but let them do it. But why the visual identity?
>> > It's the behaviour, the work-flow, the experience that makes GNOME 3
>> > from end-user point of view, and it's the visual identity that makes
>> our
>> > distro Fedora from end-user POV (among other things, but the visual
>> > identity is the first thing you see).
>>
>> They believe the stripes is part of their upstream visual identity. To
>> be fair, they are producing a lot of nice visual materials including
>> videos that have the stripes - because as a DE they must remain neutral
>> wrt distros, so they obviously cannot pick a favorite in choosing a
>> wallpaper. They would like the visual identity then across
>> GNOME-produced materials and Fedora materials and materials produced by
>> journalists and other reviewers checking out GNOME 3 via Fedora to be
>> consistent. This makes sense to me. After F15, it won't be as big a deal
>> since all the hooplah will be over, so at that point we can go back to
>> the standard operating procedure.
>>
>> > So in short, let's be *first* to ship GNOME 3 and let's be *first* to
>> > ship it with our own visual identity. We, the fedora design team,
>> should
>> > be leaders in our area as well ;-)
>>
>> I am unsure if we will be the first to ship GNOME 3. Certainly we will
>> be first to ship it by default. I don't understand how we are being
>> leaders in what you suggest here.
>>
>> ~m
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
>
> --
> Jaroslav ?ezn?k <jreznik@redhat.com>
> Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno
>
> Office: +420 532 294 275
> Mobile: +420 602 797 774
> Red Hat, Inc. http://cz.redhat.com/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> End of design-team Digest, Vol 20, Issue 17
> *******************************************
>


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Old 12-20-2010, 05:07 PM
Bill Nottingham
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

emeka@bensoftent.com (emeka@bensoftent.com) said:
> I think this is pretty easy, If GNOME 3.0 wallpaper must be there by
> default, we could add in a new feature during bootup or just before a
> users first login asking the user to choose between Fedora's Default
> Wallpaper & GNOME 3.0 Default wallpaper. Here the user is King.

That's an absolutely horrible UI; it would be like asking them at
boot time what their shell should be, or their mail client, or their
web browser, or any number of other implementation details that just
serves to confuse the user and get in the way of them actually logging
in and doing whatever task they want. It's important to choose good
defaults, not just punt choices to the user.

Bill
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Old 12-21-2010, 11:33 AM
Camilo Mesias
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 6:07 PM, Bill Nottingham <notting@redhat.com> wrote:
> That's an absolutely horrible UI; it would be like asking them at
> boot time what their shell should be, or their mail client, or their
> web browser, or any number of other implementation details that just
> serves to confuse the user and get in the way of them actually logging
> in and doing whatever task they want. It's important to choose good
> defaults, not just punt choices to the user.

Last time I did an install there was a series of questions / intrusive
UI on the first boot, is it so different?

As a user I don't really care what the background is, so long as my
subjective impression doesn't find it offensive. If I find it
offensive it's only a few clicks to replace it.

If I was a Gnome developer I'd probably be keen to see the upstream
presentation preserved; as a user I do find some value in this.

If I was a Fedora design team member I'd probably be keen for users to
have access to the Fedora version of Gnome 3, equally as a user I
would like to have this option.

Isn't it crucial to keeping everyone reasonably happy to let the users
have the option to choose from both alternatives, and wouldn't a first
boot question fit that perfectly?

-Cam
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Old 12-21-2010, 11:53 AM
Nicu Buculei
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

On 12/21/2010 02:33 PM, Camilo Mesias wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 6:07 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote:
>> That's an absolutely horrible UI; it would be like asking them at
>> boot time what their shell should be, or their mail client, or their
>> web browser, or any number of other implementation details that just
>> serves to confuse the user and get in the way of them actually logging
>> in and doing whatever task they want. It's important to choose good
>> defaults, not just punt choices to the user.
>
> Last time I did an install there was a series of questions / intrusive
> UI on the first boot, is it so different?

Yes, it is, we already have to many question at firstboot. We should not
ask there questions that are trivial or for which the user is not
prepared to answer.

> As a user I don't really care what the background is, so long as my
> subjective impression doesn't find it offensive. If I find it
> offensive it's only a few clicks to replace it.
>
> If I was a Gnome developer I'd probably be keen to see the upstream
> presentation preserved; as a user I do find some value in this.
>
> If I was a Fedora design team member I'd probably be keen for users to
> have access to the Fedora version of Gnome 3, equally as a user I
> would like to have this option.

They still can have the choice in the background selection app and we
provide there aa larger pool to choose from, but, and this was the
philosophy in GNOME for *years*, is important to have good defaults.

> Isn't it crucial to keeping everyone reasonably happy to let the users
> have the option to choose from both alternatives, and wouldn't a first
> boot question fit that perfectly?

No, it would be too much to ask, is a slippery slope, where do we start?
ask also about icon themes, cursor look, preferred SMTP server, shoes
size etc.?

--
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-21-2010, 12:12 PM
Camilo Mesias
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

Then if it's not sufficiently important to ask a user, it probably
isn't worth deliberating further.

Toss a coin or something? Provide a random default?

I wish there was more focus to package up and present alternative
themes than to provide a single look for each release. I'm thinking
that I get a better experience from choosing and using a WordPress
theme than I do from clicking about on the desktop or visiting
gnome-look.org or art.gnome.org. The default WordPress look is fine.
It's taken for granted that users will replace it though. Shouldn't it
be similar for the desktop?

-Cam
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Old 12-21-2010, 12:26 PM
Nicu Buculei
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

On 12/21/2010 03:12 PM, Camilo Mesias wrote:
> Then if it's not sufficiently important to ask a user, it probably
> isn't worth deliberating further.

Firstboot is not the time to ask that many questions, the system is
supposed to be able to run, not wait for the user to ask countless
questions.

> Toss a coin or something? Provide a random default?

Provide the *better* default.

> I wish there was more focus to package up and present alternative
> themes than to provide a single look for each release. I'm thinking

As a matter of fact for F14 we produced a set of alternate wallpapers,
but there was not enough space on the media for them to be included so
they are available only for download:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F14_Artwork_Supplemental_Wallpapers_Winners

> that I get a better experience from choosing and using a WordPress
> theme than I do from clicking about on the desktop or visiting
> gnome-look.org or art.gnome.org. The default WordPress look is fine.
> It's taken for granted that users will replace it though. Shouldn't it
> be similar for the desktop?

The default is what the users will see for the first time ans what the
reviews will feature. It is the first impression and is important.

--
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Old 12-21-2010, 12:39 PM
Camilo Mesias
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

I think this is wrong:

> Provide the *better* default.

That assumes that there is such a thing as 'better' when really it's
subjective. X might be better for Fedora, Y might be better for Gnome
and either might be equally good for a user!

> The default is what the users will see for the first time ans what the
> reviews will feature. It is the first impression and is important.

If there was a choice then the reviews would notice that, surely?
Would they complain more about being offered a choice than about
someone else's idea of the 'better' background?

I would be much more worried about first impressions of things like
Gnome Shell than the background. If we provide Gnome Shell by default,
will anyone even notice the background?

-Cam
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Old 12-21-2010, 01:15 PM
Nicu Buculei
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

On 12/21/2010 03:39 PM, Camilo Mesias wrote:
> I think this is wrong:
>
>> Provide the *better* default.
>
> That assumes that there is such a thing as 'better' when really it's
> subjective. X might be better for Fedora, Y might be better for Gnome

And this is the crux of the debate we have here, do we want the better
for Fedora or for GNOME.

> and either might be equally good for a user!

For the user is important to have an *usable* wallpaper and a smooth
experience.

>> The default is what the users will see for the first time ans what the
>> reviews will feature. It is the first impression and is important.
>
> If there was a choice then the reviews would notice that, surely?
> Would they complain more about being offered a choice than about
> someone else's idea of the 'better' background?

Yes, asking for that choice would be bad usability and a real reason for
us to be shamed.
As much as I oppose having the upstream wallpaper as a default, I would
agree is better having it instead of asking the user to choose at the
wrong time (firstboot).

> I would be much more worried about first impressions of things like
> Gnome Shell than the background. If we provide Gnome Shell by default,
> will anyone even notice the background?

The plan from the Desktop people is to have the Shell as a default (if
it will be ready in time) and their intention is to use the upstream
wallpaper as default to emphasize this.

--
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Old 12-21-2010, 01:21 PM
Jaroslav Reznik
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

On Tuesday, December 21, 2010 03:15:05 pm Nicu Buculei wrote:
> On 12/21/2010 03:39 PM, Camilo Mesias wrote:
> > I think this is wrong:
> >> Provide the *better* default.
> >
> > That assumes that there is such a thing as 'better' when really it's
> > subjective. X might be better for Fedora, Y might be better for Gnome
>
> And this is the crux of the debate we have here, do we want the better
> for Fedora or for GNOME.

And why not to make happy both parties?

R.

> > and either might be equally good for a user!
>
> For the user is important to have an *usable* wallpaper and a smooth
> experience.
>
> >> The default is what the users will see for the first time ans what the
> >> reviews will feature. It is the first impression and is important.
> >
> > If there was a choice then the reviews would notice that, surely?
> > Would they complain more about being offered a choice than about
> > someone else's idea of the 'better' background?
>
> Yes, asking for that choice would be bad usability and a real reason for
> us to be shamed.
> As much as I oppose having the upstream wallpaper as a default, I would
> agree is better having it instead of asking the user to choose at the
> wrong time (firstboot).
>
> > I would be much more worried about first impressions of things like
> > Gnome Shell than the background. If we provide Gnome Shell by default,
> > will anyone even notice the background?
>
> The plan from the Desktop people is to have the Shell as a default (if
> it will be ready in time) and their intention is to use the upstream
> wallpaper as default to emphasize this.

--
Jaroslav Řezn*k <jreznik@redhat.com>
Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno

Office: +420 532 294 275
Mobile: +420 602 797 774
Red Hat, Inc. http://cz.redhat.com/
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Old 12-21-2010, 01:32 PM
twohot
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

On 21 December 2010 14:39, Camilo Mesias <camilo@mesias.co.uk> wrote:
> I think this is wrong:
>
>> Provide the *better* default.
>
> That assumes that there is such a thing as 'better' when really it's
> subjective. X might be better for Fedora, Y might be better for Gnome
> and either might be equally good for a user!
>

No. One default can be better than another. Even if you take a
subjective approach and take a poll. You'll get a clear winner ...
subjective as the result may appear, you have a more acceptable art.
It is important to provide a generally accepted winner than a winner
accepted by a few.

>> The default is what the users will see for the first time ans what the
>> reviews will feature. It is the first impression and is important.
>
> If there was a choice then the reviews would notice that, surely?
> Would they complain more about being offered a choice than about
> someone else's idea of the 'better' background?
>
> I would be much more worried about first impressions of things like
> Gnome Shell than the background. If we provide Gnome Shell by default,
> will anyone even notice the background?

Of COurse! I am using gnome-shell and I see the wallpaper all the
time. Maybe you should preview Gnome3 first

>
> -Cam
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