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Old 12-22-2010, 09:55 AM
Nicu Buculei
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

On 12/22/2010 11:08 AM, Onyeibo Oku wrote:
>
> That looks dangerously similar to what's happening -- I mean the
> increased interest in Design-Team membership within the past 48hrs. I
> don't feel too good any more (I moved the motion for votes). Only that
> we have an 'alien' design to deal with time time around.

I want to reiterate this: my *strong* preference is for us to not have
to vote but to reach a consensus. We are dangerously on the way for
something ugly. And I don't like it takes so long.
We need to be back friends and fast.

--
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-22-2010, 10:01 AM
"Fabian A. Scherschel"
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 11:55 AM, Nicu Buculei <nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro> wrote:





I want to reiterate this: my *strong* preference is for us to not have

to vote but to reach a consensus. We are dangerously on the way for

something ugly. And I don't like it takes so long.

We need to be back friends and fast.
I would be all for a consensus but I don't think that will happen since from my point of view, the request would have to be turned down. I don't want the team to suffer because of this and I really like the wallpaper in question, but I really fear for the future of the team and about Fedora design in general if we don't make a stand at this point.

That is totally my personal opinion, though. And I'm often wrong...
Fab
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Old 12-22-2010, 10:40 AM
Onyeibo Oku
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

On 12/22/2010 12:01 PM, Fabian A. Scherschel wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 11:55 AM, Nicu Buculei <nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro
> <mailto:nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro>> wrote:
>
>
>
> I want to reiterate this: my *strong* preference is for us to not have
> to vote but to reach a consensus. We are dangerously on the way for
> something ugly. And I don't like it takes so long.
> We need to be back friends and fast.
>

+1 but how? We also need a lasting solution to this kind of conflict.
So, there is going to be some sour moments ... but we need to get it
finalized for good.

>
> I would be all for a consensus but I don't think that will happen since
> from my point of view, the request would have to be turned down. I don't
> want the team to suffer because of this and I really like the wallpaper
> in question, but I really fear for the future of the team and about
> Fedora design in general if we don't make a stand at this point.
>
> That is totally my personal opinion, though. And I'm often wrong...

Your concerns seem right to me. Is there no group in Fedora that handles
this kind of scenario (an SIG or something?). Both parties have
legitimate concerns but there are better ways to address them.

First, Gnome3 designers made a mistake in proceeding with a wallpaper
design outside of the Fedora Design team -- If they see our distro as a
marketing route then we should have been involved from the beginning.

Second, that decision (as mentioned above) can be interpreted negatively
and no one can be held responsible for choosing the wrong
interpretation. It could mean: "We can do this in-house and have a rein
over the overall GUI" (which also suggests a GNOME DISTRO -- I don't
mean a default Fedora Spin ...I mean a real Gnome Distro with the Gnome
'Foot' everywhere!, no further branding). It could also mean: "We can do
this better than downstream guys" ... which makes us redundant. It could
mean that the Gnome Team forgot they had a pool to draw from and is only
realizing it now.

Third, Several years of Gnome3 development is not a joke. They deserve
some level of marketing but they shouldn't make it mandatory (which
suggests some kind of Master-Slave relationship). In any case, a "No"
from the Fedora Design Team should NOT brew hard feelings and, on the
other hand, Fedorians shouldn't fail to proudly exhibit Gnome3 to people
out there.

Boundaries ... gentlemen, lets agree to agree OR agree to disagree.
Disagreeing to agree is making this topic bloated and prolonged.

--
Oku Onyeibo
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:twohot
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Old 12-22-2010, 12:32 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

On Wed, 2010-12-22 at 12:51 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote:
> I am a sponsor of the Design group in FAS and so far there were no
> problems there, no new members accepted (ar people applying) since this
> debate started.

I mentioned in one email folks should email me if they need it (and not
apply) and I got a *bunch* of emails.

~m

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Old 12-22-2010, 12:33 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

On Wed, 2010-12-22 at 12:55 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote:
> On 12/22/2010 11:08 AM, Onyeibo Oku wrote:
> >
> > That looks dangerously similar to what's happening -- I mean the
> > increased interest in Design-Team membership within the past 48hrs. I
> > don't feel too good any more (I moved the motion for votes). Only that
> > we have an 'alien' design to deal with time time around.
>
> I want to reiterate this: my *strong* preference is for us to not have
> to vote but to reach a consensus. We are dangerously on the way for
> something ugly. And I don't like it takes so long.
> We need to be back friends and fast.

+1 I would honestly really prefer a simple consensus.

~m

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Old 12-23-2010, 03:32 AM
Kirk Bridger
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

Hi all,

Fab's comment below seems to be a recurring feeling in this thread that
I want to better understand.

How does using a wallpaper that was not a product of solely this team
[1] result in fear for the future of this team?

I understand that the wallpaper is a large part of the visual identity
of a Fedora release. I don't understand the idea that the team's very
existence is somehow threatened if each and every release's wallpaper
isn't custom made. Perhaps it is a part of the team history that I'm
unaware of?

It sounds like if the team doesn't create a wallpaper then it ceases to
provide value to Fedora?

Kirk

[1] I thought I read that part of the Fedora Design Team helped create
the wallpaper, didn't they?




On 12/22/2010 03:01 AM, Fabian A. Scherschel wrote:
> .... I don't want the team to suffer because of this and I really like
> the wallpaper in question, but I really fear for the future of the
> team and about Fedora design in general if we don't make a stand at
> this point.
>
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Old 12-23-2010, 05:58 AM
"Fabian A. Scherschel"
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

Hey, Kirk!
I never said the team's existence was threatened. What I meant was the fact that when I mention the Design Team to outsiders, the wallpaper is what comes to their mind. For the outside world, that's largely what we do. Losing this, if only temporarily, risks marginalising the Design Team. My fear for the future stemmed from the fact that some people were saying using upstream art would generally make sense for Fedora. At that point, we hardly need a Design Team (at least not to work on the distro itself).

I don't know about others, but I joined the team because I wanted to contribute to Fedora (as in, mainly the distro). I didn't join to do random design tickets for other projects or spend all of my time designing marketing collateral. Not that I wouldn't do these other things as well, they just aren't my main reason to be on the team. I want Fedora to be the best distro out there UI/UX-wise. I personally think that is not unreasonable.

Cheers,Fab



On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 5:32 AM, Kirk Bridger <kbridger@shaw.ca> wrote:

Hi all,



Fab's comment below seems to be a recurring feeling in this thread that

I want to better understand.



How does using a wallpaper that was not a product of solely this team

[1] result in fear for the future of this team?



I understand that the wallpaper is a large part of the visual identity

of a Fedora release. *I don't understand the idea that the team's very

existence is somehow threatened if each and every release's wallpaper

isn't custom made. Perhaps it is a part of the team history that I'm

unaware of?



It sounds like if the team doesn't create a wallpaper then it ceases to

provide value to Fedora?



Kirk



[1] I thought I read that part of the Fedora Design Team helped create

the wallpaper, didn't they?









On 12/22/2010 03:01 AM, Fabian A. Scherschel wrote:

> .... I don't want the team to suffer because of this and I really like

> the wallpaper in question, but I really fear for the future of the

> team and about Fedora design in general if we don't make a stand at

> this point.

>

_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team



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Old 12-23-2010, 06:11 AM
Nicu Buculei
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

On 12/23/2010 06:32 AM, Kirk Bridger wrote:
>
> Fab's comment below seems to be a recurring feeling in this thread that
> I want to better understand.

Let me intervene here, as I am one of the older people around.

> How does using a wallpaper that was not a product of solely this team
> [1] result in fear for the future of this team?
>
> I understand that the wallpaper is a large part of the visual identity
> of a Fedora release. I don't understand the idea that the team's very
> existence is somehow threatened if each and every release's wallpaper
> isn't custom made. Perhaps it is a part of the team history that I'm
> unaware of?

I may sound dramatic, but during its existence the Design Team was over
the time assaulted by the Red Hat Desktop Team by using its control of
the default (GNOME Live CD) spin, for example they blocked the icon
project developed by our team (Echo, which was "good" while led by one
people from RHDT), they removed the Nodoka theme for a plain upstream
default (despite opposition from other sub-projects using it for other
spins), they forced a new notification theme on everybody without asking
and so on.

Is also not the first time when they propose changing the wallpaper with
something external. Some people here don't buy the "is a one time only
thing" and expect to hear later "see how well it worked? let's do it again"

> It sounds like if the team doesn't create a wallpaper then it ceases to
> provide value to Fedora?

This is the very first item our team created (that brought us together)
and the most visible of our products.

--
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-23-2010, 08:27 AM
Catalin
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

Maybe it's time for a change. I do not like excessive stubbornness and
anchoring in the past. I do not think that is a matter of
manipulation. It's just one step. Fedora had a few wallpapers that
have not been very successful. Eventually we stop to go in parallel
with Fedora wallpaper. Gnome's wallpaper to version 3.0. If you go the
idea that the design team is not able to make a wallpaper, we will not
achieve anything. Evolution of the involution is not successful, and
vice versa, the involution is not evolution.


2010/12/23 Nicu Buculei <nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro>:
> On 12/23/2010 06:32 AM, Kirk Bridger wrote:
>>
>> Fab's comment below seems to be a recurring feeling in this thread that
>> I want to better understand.
>
> Let me intervene here, as I am one of the older people around.
>
>> How does using a wallpaper that was not a product of solely this team
>> [1] result in fear for the future of this team?
>>
>> I understand that the wallpaper is a large part of the visual identity
>> of a Fedora release. *I don't understand the idea that the team's very
>> existence is somehow threatened if each and every release's wallpaper
>> isn't custom made. Perhaps it is a part of the team history that I'm
>> unaware of?
>
> I may sound dramatic, but during its existence the Design Team was over
> the time assaulted by the Red Hat Desktop Team by using its control of
> the default (GNOME Live CD) spin, for example they blocked the icon
> project developed by our team (Echo, which was "good" while led by one
> people from RHDT), they removed the Nodoka theme for a plain upstream
> default (despite opposition from other sub-projects using it for other
> spins), they forced a new notification theme on everybody without asking
> and so on.
>
> Is also not the first time when they propose changing the wallpaper with
> something external. Some people here don't buy the "is a one time only
> thing" and expect to hear later "see how well it worked? let's do it again"
>
>> It sounds like if the team doesn't create a wallpaper then it ceases to
>> provide value to Fedora?
>
> This is the very first item our team created (that brought us together)
> and the most visible of our products.
>
> --
> nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/
> _______________________________________________
> design-team mailing list
> design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
>



--
My sites:
http://catalin-festila.blogspot.com -about me
http://tv.free-tutorials.org - video tutorials
http://python-catalin.blogspot.com - my python blog
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Old 12-23-2010, 03:45 PM
"Fabian A. Scherschel"
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Catalin <catalinfest@gmail.com> wrote:

Maybe it's time for a change. I do not like excessive stubbornness and

anchoring in the past.*
Change just for change's sake can be very dangerous. Decisions like this have to be thought through properly. We can't just willy-nilly agree to such a fundamental request. If we agree, there has to be good reasoning for it. In any case, we have to think about it carefully. I really respect Nicu's experience, he's been with the team for very long and we should at least think about his points.

Fab*
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