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Old 12-21-2010, 01:32 PM
Nicu Buculei
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

On 12/21/2010 04:21 PM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 21, 2010 03:15:05 pm Nicu Buculei wrote:
>> On 12/21/2010 03:39 PM, Camilo Mesias wrote:
>>> I think this is wrong:
>>>> Provide the *better* default.
>>>
>>> That assumes that there is such a thing as 'better' when really it's
>>> subjective. X might be better for Fedora, Y might be better for Gnome
>>
>> And this is the crux of the debate we have here, do we want the better
>> for Fedora or for GNOME.
>
> And why not to make happy both parties?

Because this is not possible? The impasse we are in does not have a
solution that will please everybody.

--
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/

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Old 12-21-2010, 01:53 PM
"Fabian A. Scherschel"
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

Oh, come on!
Asking the user what wallpaper they want on boot is obviously nonsense! Should we also ask them what colour icons they want or where the panels should be? How about the browser or the default email program? Where does it stop?

The job of a distribution is too decide on sensible defaults so the user doesn't have to. This is ridicolous!


Fab


On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 6:57 PM, <emeka@bensoftent.com> wrote:

I think this is pretty easy, If GNOME 3.0 wallpaper must be there by

default, we could add in a new feature during bootup or just before a

users first login asking the user to choose between Fedora's Default

Wallpaper & GNOME 3.0 Default wallpaper. Here the user is King. Lets not

forget that GNOME's come a long way & we have some of our very own working

with them. Fedora has always been a platform for true open source

applications. Lets carry GNOME 3.0 along even though we could make

provisions for UNITY or even google chrome much later.





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> * *1. Re: GNOME background in Fedora 15 (Onyeibo Oku)

> * *2. Re: GNOME background in Fedora 15 (Martin Sourada)

> * *3. Call For Papers - 2011 World Congress on Mathematics * *and

> * * * Statistics (WCMS 2011)

> * *4. Re: GNOME background in Fedora 15 (Nicu Buculei)

> * *5. Re: GNOME background in Fedora 15 (Jaroslav Reznik)

>

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> Message: 1

> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 03:09:14 +0100

> From: Onyeibo Oku <twohotis@gmail.com>

> Subject: Re: [Design-team] GNOME background in Fedora 15

> To: Fedora Design Team <design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org>

> Message-ID: <4D0D694A.7020109@gmail.com>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

>

> On 12/19/2010 03:02 AM, Jim Campbell wrote:

>> Hi All,

>>

>> 2010/12/18 M?ir?n Duffy <duffy@fedoraproject.org

>> <mailto:duffy@fedoraproject.org>>

>>

>> * * On Sun, 2010-12-19 at 02:16 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote:

>> * * *> No, no, you misunderstood. I don't imply we should ship to gnome

>> * * spins.

>> * * *> We should either ship in F15 gnome as pristine as possible or

>> * * just do it

>> * * *> they way we do it usually. Neither of these should of course

>> affect

>> * * *> other spins and IMHO also not DVD install.

>>

>> * * Why? Again, you are proposing this all or nothing thinking and I

>> * * completely do not understand it. Can you please explain?

>>

>> * * *> PS: I think we should slowly kill this thread, I'm running "out

>> of

>> * * *> ammo", your arguments also haven't been strong enough to make me

>> * * change

>> * * *> my mind and I wouldn't want to make this into a flame...

>>

>> * * We have to make a decision.

>>

>> * * ~m

>>

>>

>>

>> I think that the Fedora Project is in a good spot here in that the

>> default Gnome3 wallpaper is a shade of blue that coincides nicely with

>> the colors that Fedora uses anyway.

>>

>> The same cannot be said of OpenSUSE, though.

>>

>> Given the hubbub that is in Fedora where there isn't really a conflict

>> of colors, but other distros would likely have a conflict with the

>> colors, would upstream Gnome be willing to compromise on this? *Would

>> upstream be willing to allow distros to create stripe-based wallpapers

>> that include the same design pattern, same degree of saturation, same

>> texture, etc., but use different distro-specific colors? *After all,

>> could we really expect OpenSUSE to ship a blue theme? *So much of their

>> artwork (website, icon set, metacity theme, etc.) is green. *And I have

>> never seen a blue gecko. *: (

>>

>> If we were able get a compromise like this, I think that there would be

>> greater likelihood of buy-in from the various the distros. They would be

>> representing and celebrating Gnome, but would retain key portions of

>> their own distro "self." Perhaps even Ubuntu would be willing to ship an

>> aubergine stripe-based theme as part of their wallpaper set (though, of

>> course, not as their default, as they are using Unity).

>>

>> This could also potentially benefit Gnome, as they could do something

>> like, "Different Colors, One Gnome," or something like that. *The Gnome

>> brand identity could be visible in the stripes, while the distros get

>> their identity in the colors.

>>

>> Jim

>>

>

> That's what I thought too

> --

> Oku Onyeibo

> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:twohot

>

>

> ------------------------------

>

> Message: 2

> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 10:40:15 +0100

> From: Martin Sourada <martin.sourada@gmail.com>

> Subject: Re: [Design-team] GNOME background in Fedora 15

> To: Fedora Design Team <design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org>

> Message-ID: <1292751616.2356.178.camel@localhost.localdomain >

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

>

> On Sat, 2010-12-18 at 20:34 -0500, M?ir?n Duffy wrote:

>> On Sun, 2010-12-19 at 02:16 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote:

>> > No, no, you misunderstood. I don't imply we should ship to gnome

>> spins.

>> > We should either ship in F15 gnome as pristine as possible or just do

>> it

>> > they way we do it usually. Neither of these should of course affect

>> > other spins and IMHO also not DVD install.

>>

>> Why? Again, you are proposing this all or nothing thinking and I

>> completely do not understand it. Can you please explain?

>>

> Because I don't understand at all why change only the wallpaper. How

> does that help anyone. It's like doing something half-heartedly to me.

>

>> > PS: I think we should slowly kill this thread, I'm running "out of

>> > ammo", your arguments also haven't been strong enough to make me

>> change

>> > my mind and I wouldn't want to make this into a flame...

>>

>> We have to make a decision.

> Agreed. Seems to me like vote is the best option (probably FAS based as

> not everyone has time to attend an IRC meeting). As I already said,

> while I'm personally against granting this request, I wouldn't mind

> granting it if majority of our team is for it.

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>

> ------------------------------

>

> Message: 3

> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 03:04:18 +0200

> From: "WCMS 2011" <admin@infomesr.org>

> Subject: [Design-team] Call For Papers - 2011 World Congress on

> * * * Mathematics * * and Statistics

> To: design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

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> ------------------------------

>

> Message: 4

> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 09:21:59 +0200

> From: Nicu Buculei <nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro>

> Subject: Re: [Design-team] GNOME background in Fedora 15

> To: Fedora Design Team <design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org>

> Message-ID: <4D0F0417.8020607@nicubunu.ro>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

>

> On 12/17/2010 06:01 PM, Owen Taylor wrote:

>>

>> If the team doing the default Fedora desktop switched and did a GNOME

>> remix instead this cycle, who would do the default Fedora desktop?

>> (I'm sure you'd be happy to switch the default to KDE for this cycle,

>> but... ;-)

>

> Yes, if you do a remix, nobody will object on whatever branding you

> apply to it, as long as it is not our *default* download.

>

>> And how would we distinguish between the two different downloads when

>> presenting options to the user? We'd basically be offering the user the

>> choice between two different almost identical things because we couldn't

>> come to a decision.

>

> One is the default download, linked practically from everywhere and the

> other one is listed on the spins page, on the same level with everybody

> else.

>

> --

> nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/

>

>

> ------------------------------

>

> Message: 5

> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 10:02:26 +0100

> From: Jaroslav Reznik <jreznik@redhat.com>

> Subject: Re: [Design-team] GNOME background in Fedora 15

> To: Fedora Design Team <design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org>

> Message-ID: <201012201002.26880.jreznik@redhat.com>

> Content-Type: Text/Plain; *charset="utf-8"

>

> On Saturday, December 18, 2010 02:23:52 am M?ir?n Duffy wrote:

>> Hi Martin,

>>

>> On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 22:28 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote:

>> > IMHO this would lessen Fedora's visual identity a lot. Imagine you

>> boot

>> > a F15 Desktop Live and what you see is almost pristine GNOME 3

>> desktop.

>> > Where's Fedora in it? Where's our own visual identity in it?

>>

>> Our visual identity would (if the proposal is accepted) be present on

>> the website, on the DVD disc labels and sleeves, in syslinux, in the

>> installer, in firstboot, in plymouth, and on the login screen. The

>> wallpaper we design will be the default for GDM.

>>

>> > *Moreover,

>> >

>> > KDE shipped our wallpaper with the 4.0 release, why should we treat

>> > GNOME differently? Is it some new trend?

>>

>> I honestly don't remember the KDE SIG ever approaching us with this

>> request. And honestly why would they? - they aren't the default

>> download, so it's not up to this team, it's up to the KDE SIG what to

>> do. This team, the design team, has purview over the default wallpaper

>> in the default Fedora. Spins have always been able to change their

>> wallpapers as they've liked, and we've even designed alternative

>> wallpapers for them at their request (e.g., Education Spin and Security

>> Spin.)

>

> Actually I asked for something I proposed here - KDE was in the same

> situation

> one year ago... And I still think it's a good idea - to merge

> upstream/downstream branding - it would work best for both Gnome and KDE,

> it's

> long-term solution etc. I'll try to write down the proposal.

>

> But you said it - Gnome spin is now the default one - we should take care

> about

> our jewel.

>

> R.

>

>> > OK, so upstream wants to promote GNOME 3. I'm not a fan of gnome-shell

>> > (quite the contrary), but let them do it. But why the visual identity?

>> > It's the behaviour, the work-flow, the experience that makes GNOME 3

>> > from end-user point of view, and it's the visual identity that makes

>> our

>> > distro Fedora from end-user POV (among other things, but the visual

>> > identity is the first thing you see).

>>

>> They believe the stripes is part of their upstream visual identity. To

>> be fair, they are producing a lot of nice visual materials including

>> videos that have the stripes - because as a DE they must remain neutral

>> wrt distros, so they obviously cannot pick a favorite in choosing a

>> wallpaper. They would like the visual identity then across

>> GNOME-produced materials and Fedora materials and materials produced by

>> journalists and other reviewers checking out GNOME 3 via Fedora to be

>> consistent. This makes sense to me. After F15, it won't be as big a deal

>> since all the hooplah will be over, so at that point we can go back to

>> the standard operating procedure.

>>

>> > So in short, let's be *first* to ship GNOME 3 and let's be *first* to

>> > ship it with our own visual identity. We, the fedora design team,

>> should

>> > be leaders in our area as well ;-)

>>

>> I am unsure if we will be the first to ship GNOME 3. Certainly we will

>> be first to ship it by default. I don't understand how we are being

>> leaders in what you suggest here.

>>

>> ~m

>>

>> _______________________________________________

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>> design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

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>

> --

> Jaroslav ?ezn?k <jreznik@redhat.com>

> Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno

>

> Office: +420 532 294 275

> Mobile: +420 602 797 774

> Red Hat, Inc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * http://cz.redhat.com/

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> End of design-team Digest, Vol 20, Issue 17

> *******************************************

>





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Old 12-21-2010, 08:14 PM
Camilo Mesias
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

Hi,

On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 2:32 PM, twohot <twohot@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> No. One default can be better than another. *Even if you take a
> subjective approach and take a poll. *You'll get a clear winner ...
> subjective as the result may appear, you have a more acceptable art.
> It is important to provide a generally accepted winner than a winner
> accepted by a few.

I think the point is that the Fedora background and the Gnome one are
both likely to be technically excellent backgrounds. Users would get
along fine with either. A choice is more likely to be made on
religious grounds and any poll you take will be heavily influenced by
the opinions of the people polled.

If a user choice is really such a horrible UI then someone will have
to decide on a default. The person responsible will risk alienating
some people. The 'losers' will have to swallow their pride and we can
all move on to something that users will actually care about.

> Of COurse! I am using gnome-shell and I see the wallpaper all the
> time. *Maybe you should preview Gnome3 first

I've been using Gnome shell since I first noticed I could, and I love
it. I know it's not perfect. I know not everyone loves it but I am
really looking forward to it being the default If it ships then I
will be stunned to hear reviews along the lines of "It has Gnome shell
which is so different to the old desktop in so many ways but the thing
that really bugged me was this wallpaper"

-Cam
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Old 12-21-2010, 08:29 PM
Camilo Mesias
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

Fab,

On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 2:53 PM, Fabian A. Scherschel <fab@sixgun.org> wrote:
> Oh, come on!
> Asking the user what wallpaper they want on boot is obviously nonsense!
> Should we also ask them what colour icons they want or where the panels
> should be? How about the browser or the default email program? Where does it
> stop?
> The job of a distribution is too decide on sensible defaults so the user
> doesn't have to. This is ridicolous!

It's not that ridiculous if you think about it. It might be different
to what you are used to from a Linux distro.

I'm thinking of lots of modern websites where the design and
functionality has been changed*. These are leading sites that haven't
got to where they are by alienating users. It is similar to changing
the way the desktop works. As a gentle introduction to the changes,
the user on first login is offered a tour of the new features which
integrates nicely with a chance to change or set the optional bits of
the interface. Actually I think that would work really well with Gnome
3 if only someone had the time, the overall vision and the
responsibility for making sure the users 'bought in' to the new
design...

-Cam

* new.facebook.com and then Facebook's 'New profile'; the second
redesign of Orkut; YouTube's new layout all had interactive tours to
introduce users to the new features (and turn bits of them off if they
didn't like them)
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Old 12-22-2010, 05:44 AM
Nicu Buculei
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

On 12/21/2010 11:14 PM, Camilo Mesias wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 2:32 PM, twohot wrote:
>> No. One default can be better than another. Even if you take a
>> subjective approach and take a poll. You'll get a clear winner ...
>> subjective as the result may appear, you have a more acceptable art.
>> It is important to provide a generally accepted winner than a winner
>> accepted by a few.
>
> I think the point is that the Fedora background and the Gnome one are
> both likely to be technically excellent backgrounds. Users would get
> along fine with either. A choice is more likely to be made on
> religious grounds and any poll you take will be heavily influenced by
> the opinions of the people polled.

There is nothing religious here, is all about identity, marketing and
strategy.

> If a user choice is really such a horrible UI then someone will have
> to decide on a default. The person responsible will risk alienating
> some people. The 'losers' will have to swallow their pride and we can
> all move on to something that users will actually care about.

Ideally we would NOT vote (yes, I also think this is a bad way to make
the decision) but decide by consensus. We as a team tried to operate
this way all along (F10 was a bad exception we don't want to repeat).


--
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Old 12-22-2010, 06:11 AM
Onyeibo Oku
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

On 12/22/2010 07:44 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote:
<snip>
> Ideally we would NOT vote (yes, I also think this is a bad way to make
> the decision) but decide by consensus. We as a team tried to operate
> this way all along (F10 was a bad exception we don't want to repeat).
>

I joined after F11. Would be helpful to know what happened at F10.

--
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http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:twohot
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Old 12-22-2010, 06:44 AM
Nicu Buculei
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

On 12/22/2010 09:11 AM, Onyeibo Oku wrote:
> On 12/22/2010 07:44 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote:
> <snip>
>> Ideally we would NOT vote (yes, I also think this is a bad way to make
>> the decision) but decide by consensus. We as a team tried to operate
>> this way all along (F10 was a bad exception we don't want to repeat).
>>
>
> I joined after F11. Would be helpful to know what happened at F10.

We had 4 competing design (Solar, InvinXible, Gears and Neon), nobody
backed down, it was impossible for the team to get to a consensus for a
"winner", we had to vote which lead to huge debates, animosity and
people trying to rig the system (join the team only for the vote). We
decided we want to be friends and not repeat the experience.

--
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Old 12-22-2010, 08:08 AM
Onyeibo Oku
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

On 12/22/2010 08:44 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote:
> On 12/22/2010 09:11 AM, Onyeibo Oku wrote:
>> On 12/22/2010 07:44 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote:
>> <snip>
>>> Ideally we would NOT vote (yes, I also think this is a bad way to make
>>> the decision) but decide by consensus. We as a team tried to operate
>>> this way all along (F10 was a bad exception we don't want to repeat).
>>>
>>
>> I joined after F11. Would be helpful to know what happened at F10.
>
> We had 4 competing design (Solar, InvinXible, Gears and Neon), nobody
> backed down, it was impossible for the team to get to a consensus for a
> "winner", we had to vote which lead to huge debates, animosity and
> people trying to rig the system (join the team only for the vote). We
> decided we want to be friends and not repeat the experience.
>
That looks dangerously similar to what's happening -- I mean the
increased interest in Design-Team membership within the past 48hrs. I
don't feel too good any more (I moved the motion for votes). Only that
we have an 'alien' design to deal with time time around.

<thinking aloud> I personally don't buy the wallpaper concept (stripes)
but it does go well with the Gnome3 mock-ups (which means the Gnome3
interface overhaul will be more at home with the kind of wallpapers made
by the Fedora Design Team). However, in the spirit of Open-Source and
Linux OS as a whole, its humbling to get a request to assist a major
contributor to Linux DE.

Argh ... *scratching-my-head* ... but Fedora Design team handles design
request other than those internally generated. Why didn't Gnome ask us
to do this through the usual means -- place the request on Trac and
alarm us to do our thing -- to produce a mock-up wallpaper (even link a
sample concept, the stripes). It would have been downstream -> upstream
motion as usual. That would have made this case so much easier. It
would have been a Gnome3 wallpaper ... but a Fedora Design Team work.

It adds up. This is a dilemma ... How did we get here? How do we end
this? </thinking aloud>

--
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http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:twohot
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Old 12-22-2010, 09:50 AM
"Fabian A. Scherschel"
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 10:29 PM, Camilo Mesias <camilo@mesias.co.uk> wrote:





It's not that ridiculous if you think about it. It might be different

to what you are used to from a Linux distro.



I'm thinking of lots of modern websites where the design and

functionality has been changed*. These are leading sites that haven't

got to where they are by alienating users. It is similar to changing

the way the desktop works.
I am sorry, but I don't agree. I meant what I said. It's horrible UX, even I can see that. Fedora is not Facebook or Twitter and even if you could compare a desktop operating system to a website, I'd say the way that these proprietary, closed systems are handling their design choices is nothing a volunteer-driven Linux distro should aspire to. As Nicu said, we already have way too many choices, questions and knobs as it stands. I don't want us to become one-happy-button MacOS, far from that, but we still need to be conscious of not confusing or annoying end users-

*As a gentle introduction to the changes,

the user on first login is offered a tour of the new features which

integrates nicely with a chance to change or set the optional bits of

the interface. Actually I think that would work really well with Gnome

3 if only someone had the time, the overall vision and the

responsibility for making sure the users 'bought in' to the new

design...
Do you remember Windows XP? I haven't seen one single user in five years of part-time professional Windows end-user support that hasn't clicked away these tours immediately. People don't want them. People also *want a nice default wallpaper without being asked questions.

If in doubt, I'd rather use the stock Gnome wallpaper than asking people questions first. It's a nice-looking wallpaper and my quarrel with adopting it lies on a very different level as I hope I've made clear in this thread already.

No offense, I didn't want to insult you, I just wanted to be clear about it.
Fab
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Old 12-22-2010, 09:51 AM
Nicu Buculei
 
Default Fedora 15 GNOME Default Wallpaper

On 12/22/2010 11:08 AM, Onyeibo Oku wrote:
> On 12/22/2010 08:44 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote:
>>
>> We had 4 competing design (Solar, InvinXible, Gears and Neon), nobody
>> backed down, it was impossible for the team to get to a consensus for a
>> "winner", we had to vote which lead to huge debates, animosity and
>> people trying to rig the system (join the team only for the vote). We
>> decided we want to be friends and not repeat the experience.
>>
> That looks dangerously similar to what's happening -- I mean the

Only then it was a fight inside the team, not is an inter-teams
conflict. I think now is much worse, is about our identity.

> increased interest in Design-Team membership within the past 48hrs. I
> don't feel too good any more (I moved the motion for votes). Only that
> we have an 'alien' design to deal with time time around.

I am a sponsor of the Design group in FAS and so far there were no
problems there, no new members accepted (ar people applying) since this
debate started.

> Argh ... *scratching-my-head* ... but Fedora Design team handles design
> request other than those internally generated. Why didn't Gnome ask us
> to do this through the usual means -- place the request on Trac and
> alarm us to do our thing -- to produce a mock-up wallpaper (even link a
> sample concept, the stripes). It would have been downstream -> upstream
> motion as usual. That would have made this case so much easier. It
> would have been a Gnome3 wallpaper ... but a Fedora Design Team work.

Do you think any other major distro will happily use a design made by
Fedora?

--
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/
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