GNOME background in Fedora 15
 

Hi design team -

So, obviously there has been a lot of discussion over the last few days
about the desktop background in Fedora 15 and GNOME 3 but since there
seems to be still a bit of confusion about it, I wanted to step back and
try to write things down a little more formally and hopefully explain
better why we'd like to do something a little different for GNOME in
Fedora 15.

("We" here is basically the set of people who work to package up GNOME
for Fedora - almost all of us combine upstream maintainership of modules
within GNOME with work on making the Fedora desktop. For example,
I'm the lead maintainer of GNOME Shell and the Mutter compositor
upstream, and also handle gnome-shell, mutter, metacity, and several
other packages within Fedora.)

GNOME 3 in Fedora 15 is a big deal. For perspective, GNOME 2.0 was
released in June of 2002, and it was first shipped in Red Hat Linux 8.
We started specific work on the GNOME 3 release in October of 2008, over
2 years ago. So, as you can imagine, there's a lot of effort being put
in on the GNOME side to make a big splash about the GNOME 3 release and
really do a good job about getting information out to people about
what's new and exciting in GNOME 3.

Part of publicity about GNOME 3 is establishing an image in people's
minds about what GNOME looks like. The GNOME 3 look has many
elements ... the widget theme, the black top panel and status icon drop
downs, the fonts we use, and so forth. One prominent part of the
appearance is the background. (The background has a new functional role
in GNOME 3. As well as being behind all the users windows, it also
provides the background to the GNOME "Activities Overview". You can see
how this works, for example, in the screenshot in
http://blogs.gnome.org/fmuellner/2010/11/16/moving-forward/)

If someone reads about GNOME 3 and gets excited about it and wants to
try it out, then they'll need to try it out within a Linux distribution
There's no way to install and try out "GNOME" by itself. Quite a few
different distributions will be shipping GNOME 3 this spring, but we
expect Fedora to be one of the most popular, if not the most popular of
those distributions. (Ubuntu is going their own way with Unity and will
not be featuring GNOME 3.)

After going and getting GNOME on some distribution, the user blogs about
their experiences or writes an article, we'd really like it if the focus
was on what's new in GNOME 3 not how it was integrated and modified for
one distribution or another distribution. Changing the background seems
like a pretty minor modification, and functionally it is a pretty minor
modification, but it is also a major visual modification. Suddenly a
screenshot is no longer a screenshot of GNOME 3, it's a screenshot of
GNOME 3 as modified for a particular distribution.

We want Fedora to be the showcase for GNOME 3 and to be a good example
to other distributions about how to package GNOME 3. So, to go along
with the release splash for Fedora 15, we'd like to make special request
that for this release we use the GNOME background in the Fedora GNOME
packages and hence in the default Fedora desktop.

I want to be clear that this is not in any way saying that we don't like
the Fedora backgrounds ... the recent Fedora backgrounds are great, and
keep on getting cleaner and more professional looking every release. The
issue is rather a question of trying to provide a single look for the
GNOME 3 release rather than a series of looks, one per distribution.

To try and provide a few answers to questions that already have come up:

* Is this really just for Fedora 15?

Yes. The request is specifically to ship the GNOME background as the
default for Fedora 15.

* Would the Fedora background be available for GNOME users?

Yes. The desktop background is a place for users to customize their
desktop and express their personality ... there is no idea that we'd
restrict that customization. GNOME will ship a varied collection of
different backgrounds. Providing the Fedora design
team's background as another option makes a ton of sense to me.

* Is the GNOME background really that distinctive?

A background that looked like nothing anybody had ever seen before
would likely be a pretty strange background. So, yes, it's possible
to find previously released backgrounds that are very similar. But
that doesn't mean that the overall combination of visual features
involved in GNOME 3 isn't distinctive and memorable.

* What about the rest of the artwork?

I think trying to adapt the entire set of artwork in Fedora to have
different looks for different spins is probably more confusing then
anything else. The GNOME default background matches pretty well with
the Fedora look, so it's not going to be jarring to switch to it
after seeing the standard Fedora artwork for boot.

* What about other desktops in Fedora?

We're not trying to say that there is anything fundamentally
different about the GNOME desktop in Fedora than any other desktop;
While we do think GNOME 3 is a special occasion for GNOME, every
desktop should be able to work with the Fedora design team to figure
out what makes the most sense for a release.

And while I think it would be a bit strange and confusing for other
desktops to use a GNOME background as their default, there's
no barrier for other spins to include the gnome-themes-standard
package and depend on the
/usr/share/themes/Adwaita/backgrounds/stripes.jpg
if they want.

I know the desktop is a big part of the expression of Fedora's design
personality and its a lot to ask of the design team to have something
else as the default background for the default desktop for this release,
but I think it is a distinct positive for the release of GNOME 3. And
working together with upstream well is something that's fundamental to
Fedora. So hopefully a lot to ask is not too much to ask :-)

Please let me know what additional questions and concerns you have and
if we can move forward on this. Thanks!

- Owen


_______________________________________________
design-team mailing list
design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team

GNOME background in Fedora 15
 

Thank you for providing summary about bg theme proposal for fedora 15. Issue on kde side was the absence of such request with kde 4.0 release triggering the unfortunate "DE wars."
Having looked at the bg i think it works well with Fedora. The fact spin versions can use them helps. because rquest is only for f15 i favour it thus giving time to explore gnome3.

----------
Sent via Mobile Mail

------Original Message------
From: Owen Taylor <otaylor@redhat.com>
To: <design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org>
Date: Thursday, December 16, 2010 6:54:33 PM GMT-0500
Subject: [Design-team] GNOME background in Fedora 15

Hi design team -

So, obviously there has been a lot of discussion over the last few days
about the desktop background in Fedora 15 and GNOME 3 but since there
seems to be still a bit of confusion about it, I wanted to step back and
try to write things down a little more formally and hopefully explain
better why we'd like to do something a little different for GNOME in
Fedora 15.

("We" here is basically the set of people who work to package up GNOME
for Fedora - almost all of us combine upstream maintainership of modules
within GNOME with work on making the Fedora desktop. For example,
I'm the lead maintainer of GNOME Shell and the Mutter compositor
upstream, and also handle gnome-shell, mutter, metacity, and several
other packages within Fedora.)

GNOME 3 in Fedora 15 is a big deal. For perspective, GNOME 2.0 was
released in June of 2002, and it was first shipped in Red Hat Linux 8.
We started specific work on the GNOME 3 release in October of 2008, over
2 years ago. So, as you can imagine, there's a lot of effort being put
in on the GNOME side to make a big splash about the GNOME 3 release and
really do a good job about getting information out to people about
what's new and exciting in GNOME 3.

Part of publicity about GNOME 3 is establishing an image in people's
minds about what GNOME looks like. The GNOME 3 look has many
elements ... the widget theme, the black top panel and status icon drop
downs, the fonts we use, and so forth. One prominent part of the
appearance is the background. (The background has a new functional role
in GNOME 3. As well as being behind all the users windows, it also
provides the background to the GNOME "Activities Overview". You can see
how this works, for example, in the screenshot in
http://blogs.gnome.org/fmuellner/2010/11/16/moving-forward/)

If someone reads about GNOME 3 and gets excited about it and wants to
try it out, then they'll need to try it out within a Linux distribution
There's no way to install and try out "GNOME" by itself. Quite a few
different distributions will be shipping GNOME 3 this spring, but we
expect Fedora to be one of the most popular, if not the most popular of
those distributions. (Ubuntu is going their own way with Unity and will
not be featuring GNOME 3.)

After going and getting GNOME on some distribution, the user blogs about
their experiences or writes an article, we'd really like it if the focus
was on what's new in GNOME 3 not how it was integrated and modified for
one distribution or another distribution. Changing the background seems
like a pretty minor modification, and functionally it is a pretty minor
modification, but it is also a major visual modification. Suddenly a
screenshot is no longer a screenshot of GNOME 3, it's a screenshot of
GNOME 3 as modified for a particular distribution.

We want Fedora to be the showcase for GNOME 3 and to be a good example
to other distributions about how to package GNOME 3. So, to go along
with the release splash for Fedora 15, we'd like to make special request
that for this release we use the GNOME background in the Fedora GNOME
packages and hence in the default Fedora desktop.

I want to be clear that this is not in any way saying that we don't like
the Fedora backgrounds ... the recent Fedora backgrounds are great, and
keep on getting cleaner and more professional looking every release. The
issue is rather a question of trying to provide a single look for the
GNOME 3 release rather than a series of looks, one per distribution.

To try and provide a few answers to questions that already have come up:

* Is this really just for Fedora 15?

Yes. The request is specifically to ship the GNOME background as the
default for Fedora 15.

* Would the Fedora background be available for GNOME users?

Yes. The desktop background is a place for users to customize their
desktop and express their personality ... there is no idea that we'd
restrict that customization. GNOME will ship a varied collection of
different backgrounds. Providing the Fedora design
team's background as another option makes a ton of sense to me.

* Is the GNOME background really that distinctive?

A background that looked like nothing anybody had ever seen before
would likely be a pretty strange background. So, yes, it's possible
to find previously released backgrounds that are very similar. But
that doesn't mean that the overall combination of visual features
involved in GNOME 3 isn't distinctive and memorable.

* What about the rest of the artwork?

I think trying to adapt the entire set of artwork in Fedora to have
different looks for different spins is probably more confusing then
anything else. The GNOME default background matches pretty well with
the Fedora look, so it's not going to be jarring to switch to it
after seeing the standard Fedora artwork for boot.

* What about other desktops in Fedora?

We're not trying to say that there is anything fundamentally
different about the GNOME desktop in Fedora than any other desktop;
While we do think GNOME 3 is a special occasion for GNOME, every
desktop should be able to work with the Fedora design team to figure
out what makes the most sense for a release.

And while I think it would be a bit strange and confusing for other
desktops to use a GNOME background as their default, there's
no barrier for other spins to include the gnome-themes-standard
package and depend on the
/usr/share/themes/Adwaita/backgrounds/stripes.jpg
if they want.

I know the desktop is a big part of the expression of Fedora's design
personality and its a lot to ask of the design team to have something
else as the default background for the default desktop for this release,
but I think it is a distinct positive for the release of GNOME 3. And
working together with upstream well is something that's fundamental to
Fedora. So hopefully a lot to ask is not too much to ask :-)

Please let me know what additional questions and concerns you have and
if we can move forward on this. Thanks!

- Owen


_______________________________________________
design-team mailing list
design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team

_______________________________________________
design-team mailing list
design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team

GNOME background in Fedora 15
 

On 12/17/2010 01:54 AM, Owen Taylor wrote:
>
> We want Fedora to be the showcase for GNOME 3 and to be a good example
> to other distributions about how to package GNOME 3. So, to go along
> with the release splash for Fedora 15, we'd like to make special request
> that for this release we use the GNOME background in the Fedora GNOME
> packages and hence in the default Fedora desktop.

As I understood the opinions in the latest team IRC meeting, blog
comments, mailing list discussions and direct contacts with community
members, the general opinion is such a move would be detrimental to
Fedora's own image and of little use for GNOME promotion.

> I want to be clear that this is not in any way saying that we don't like
> the Fedora backgrounds ... the recent Fedora backgrounds are great, and
> keep on getting cleaner and more professional looking every release. The
> issue is rather a question of trying to provide a single look for the
> GNOME 3 release rather than a series of looks, one per distribution.

Can you name at least one other *relevant* distro that will use the same
background as default? Especially if they know this may be *our* default?

> * What about the rest of the artwork?
>
> I think trying to adapt the entire set of artwork in Fedora to have
> different looks for different spins is probably more confusing then
> anything else. The GNOME default background matches pretty well with
> the Fedora look, so it's not going to be jarring to switch to it
> after seeing the standard Fedora artwork for boot.

Case in point: the GDM background would be the same as the GNOME
background or as the general-purpose background used by all the other
spins? Which one of the spins will have an inconsistent experience? The
same about the Plymouth colors. We are supposed to use *vertical
stripes* or not in GRUB, Anaconda, firstboot etc.? How about website
identity?

--
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/

_______________________________________________
design-team mailing list
design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team

GNOME background in Fedora 15
 

On Friday, December 17, 2010 05:26:57 am tshimulu@gmail.com wrote:
> Thank you for providing summary about bg theme proposal for fedora 15.

> Issue on kde side was the absence of such request with kde 4.0 release
> triggering the unfortunate "DE wars."

Which request? Long time ago - we were thinking about actually the same as the
plan for merging Gnome theme with Fedora is now. It wasn't received very well
and I'm happy it wasn't accepted - instead we have now a great Fedora themes all
around the whole Fedora as a project! We have real Fedora identity!!! I don't
want to be just a demo version for any desktop - Gnome, KDE, whatever ;-)

Make Love(lock), not war ;-)

R.

> Having looked at the bg i think it
> works well with Fedora. The fact spin versions can use them helps. because
> rquest is only for f15 i favour it thus giving time to explore gnome3.
>
> ----------
> Sent via Mobile Mail
>
> ------Original Message------
> From: Owen Taylor <otaylor@redhat.com>
> To: <design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org>
> Date: Thursday, December 16, 2010 6:54:33 PM GMT-0500
> Subject: [Design-team] GNOME background in Fedora 15
>
> Hi design team -
>
> So, obviously there has been a lot of discussion over the last few days
> about the desktop background in Fedora 15 and GNOME 3 but since there
> seems to be still a bit of confusion about it, I wanted to step back and
> try to write things down a little more formally and hopefully explain
> better why we'd like to do something a little different for GNOME in
> Fedora 15.
>
> ("We" here is basically the set of people who work to package up GNOME
> for Fedora - almost all of us combine upstream maintainership of modules
> within GNOME with work on making the Fedora desktop. For example,
> I'm the lead maintainer of GNOME Shell and the Mutter compositor
> upstream, and also handle gnome-shell, mutter, metacity, and several
> other packages within Fedora.)
>
> GNOME 3 in Fedora 15 is a big deal. For perspective, GNOME 2.0 was
> released in June of 2002, and it was first shipped in Red Hat Linux 8.
> We started specific work on the GNOME 3 release in October of 2008, over
> 2 years ago. So, as you can imagine, there's a lot of effort being put
> in on the GNOME side to make a big splash about the GNOME 3 release and
> really do a good job about getting information out to people about
> what's new and exciting in GNOME 3.
>
> Part of publicity about GNOME 3 is establishing an image in people's
> minds about what GNOME looks like. The GNOME 3 look has many
> elements ... the widget theme, the black top panel and status icon drop
> downs, the fonts we use, and so forth. One prominent part of the
> appearance is the background. (The background has a new functional role
> in GNOME 3. As well as being behind all the users windows, it also
> provides the background to the GNOME "Activities Overview". You can see
> how this works, for example, in the screenshot in
> http://blogs.gnome.org/fmuellner/2010/11/16/moving-forward/)
>
> If someone reads about GNOME 3 and gets excited about it and wants to
> try it out, then they'll need to try it out within a Linux distribution
> There's no way to install and try out "GNOME" by itself. Quite a few
> different distributions will be shipping GNOME 3 this spring, but we
> expect Fedora to be one of the most popular, if not the most popular of
> those distributions. (Ubuntu is going their own way with Unity and will
> not be featuring GNOME 3.)
>
> After going and getting GNOME on some distribution, the user blogs about
> their experiences or writes an article, we'd really like it if the focus
> was on what's new in GNOME 3 not how it was integrated and modified for
> one distribution or another distribution. Changing the background seems
> like a pretty minor modification, and functionally it is a pretty minor
> modification, but it is also a major visual modification. Suddenly a
> screenshot is no longer a screenshot of GNOME 3, it's a screenshot of
> GNOME 3 as modified for a particular distribution.
>
> We want Fedora to be the showcase for GNOME 3 and to be a good example
> to other distributions about how to package GNOME 3. So, to go along
> with the release splash for Fedora 15, we'd like to make special request
> that for this release we use the GNOME background in the Fedora GNOME
> packages and hence in the default Fedora desktop.
>
> I want to be clear that this is not in any way saying that we don't like
> the Fedora backgrounds ... the recent Fedora backgrounds are great, and
> keep on getting cleaner and more professional looking every release. The
> issue is rather a question of trying to provide a single look for the
> GNOME 3 release rather than a series of looks, one per distribution.
>
> To try and provide a few answers to questions that already have come up:
>
> * Is this really just for Fedora 15?
>
> Yes. The request is specifically to ship the GNOME background as the
> default for Fedora 15.
>
> * Would the Fedora background be available for GNOME users?
>
> Yes. The desktop background is a place for users to customize their
> desktop and express their personality ... there is no idea that we'd
> restrict that customization. GNOME will ship a varied collection of
> different backgrounds. Providing the Fedora design
> team's background as another option makes a ton of sense to me.
>
> * Is the GNOME background really that distinctive?
>
> A background that looked like nothing anybody had ever seen before
> would likely be a pretty strange background. So, yes, it's possible
> to find previously released backgrounds that are very similar. But
> that doesn't mean that the overall combination of visual features
> involved in GNOME 3 isn't distinctive and memorable.
>
> * What about the rest of the artwork?
>
> I think trying to adapt the entire set of artwork in Fedora to have
> different looks for different spins is probably more confusing then
> anything else. The GNOME default background matches pretty well with
> the Fedora look, so it's not going to be jarring to switch to it
> after seeing the standard Fedora artwork for boot.
>
> * What about other desktops in Fedora?
>
> We're not trying to say that there is anything fundamentally
> different about the GNOME desktop in Fedora than any other desktop;
> While we do think GNOME 3 is a special occasion for GNOME, every
> desktop should be able to work with the Fedora design team to figure
> out what makes the most sense for a release.
>
> And while I think it would be a bit strange and confusing for other
> desktops to use a GNOME background as their default, there's
> no barrier for other spins to include the gnome-themes-standard
> package and depend on the
> /usr/share/themes/Adwaita/backgrounds/stripes.jpg
> if they want.
>
> I know the desktop is a big part of the expression of Fedora's design
> personality and its a lot to ask of the design team to have something
> else as the default background for the default desktop for this release,
> but I think it is a distinct positive for the release of GNOME 3. And
> working together with upstream well is something that's fundamental to
> Fedora. So hopefully a lot to ask is not too much to ask :-)
>
> Please let me know what additional questions and concerns you have and
> if we can move forward on this. Thanks!
>
> - Owen
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> design-team mailing list
> design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
>
> _______________________________________________
> design-team mailing list
> design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team

--
Jaroslav ŘeznÃ*k <jreznik@redhat.com>
Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno

Office: +420 532 294 275
Mobile: +420 602 797 774
Red Hat, Inc. http://cz.redhat.com/
_______________________________________________
design-team mailing list
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https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team

GNOME background in Fedora 15
 

On Friday, December 17, 2010 08:10:44 am Nicu Buculei wrote:
> On 12/17/2010 01:54 AM, Owen Taylor wrote:
> > We want Fedora to be the showcase for GNOME 3 and to be a good example
> > to other distributions about how to package GNOME 3. So, to go along
> > with the release splash for Fedora 15, we'd like to make special request
> > that for this release we use the GNOME background in the Fedora GNOME
> > packages and hence in the default Fedora desktop.
>
> As I understood the opinions in the latest team IRC meeting, blog
> comments, mailing list discussions and direct contacts with community
> members, the general opinion is such a move would be detrimental to
> Fedora's own image and of little use for GNOME promotion.
>
> > I want to be clear that this is not in any way saying that we don't like
> > the Fedora backgrounds ... the recent Fedora backgrounds are great, and
> > keep on getting cleaner and more professional looking every release. The
> > issue is rather a question of trying to provide a single look for the
> > GNOME 3 release rather than a series of looks, one per distribution.
>
> Can you name at least one other *relevant* distro that will use the same
> background as default? Especially if they know this may be *our* default?
>
> > * What about the rest of the artwork?
> >
> > I think trying to adapt the entire set of artwork in Fedora to have
> > different looks for different spins is probably more confusing then
> > anything else. The GNOME default background matches pretty well with
> > the Fedora look, so it's not going to be jarring to switch to it
> > after seeing the standard Fedora artwork for boot.
>
> Case in point: the GDM background would be the same as the GNOME
> background or as the general-purpose background used by all the other
> spins? Which one of the spins will have an inconsistent experience? The
> same about the Plymouth colors. We are supposed to use *vertical
> stripes* or not in GRUB, Anaconda, firstboot etc.? How about website
> identity?

I'm not against even making theme based on Gnome/KDE stripes - it should work
for both Gnome 3 and other desktops and still retains our Identity. Gnome 3
would have stripes based theme but with Fedora feel there - win and profit for
both projects!

Last time I proposed it, it wasn't accepted but still I think this can work. It
could bring some "personality" to spins - to combine upstream themes with Fedora
ones. But it involves much more work.

R.
--
Jaroslav ŘeznÃ*k <jreznik@redhat.com>
Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno

Office: +420 532 294 275
Mobile: +420 602 797 774
Red Hat, Inc. http://cz.redhat.com/
_______________________________________________
design-team mailing list
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https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team

GNOME background in Fedora 15
 

Wow..... Just heard about this now. With all due respect, this is BULLSHIT. You are telling me you couldn't have told the team earlier? Maybe BEFORE we all started ramping up to do the F15 wallpaper? This decision must've been in the works for quite some time.

This is disappointing as hell. I had expected nonsense like that within the Ubuntu community, but not with Fedora. This would've been a chance to really set Fedora apart and create the best Gnome 3 experience everywhere in an open and transparent way.Â*We've said so since the last GUADEC.Â*That is what the Design Team is for. If we just dictate a wallpaper from up hight, that maybe transparent but it's not open. At least not in my understanding of it. And now this, out of nowhere. What exactly is the Design Team doing for F15 now? Why are we even there at all?

Sorry if this sounds pissed off, but that is basically the way I feel right now.

# Fabian A. Scherschel

# Host & Producer, Sixgun Productions# Member, Fedora Design Team



On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Jaroslav Reznik <jreznik@redhat.com> wrote:

On Friday, December 17, 2010 08:10:44 am Nicu Buculei wrote:

> On 12/17/2010 01:54 AM, Owen Taylor wrote:

> > We want Fedora to be the showcase for GNOME 3 and to be a good example

> > to other distributions about how to package GNOME 3. So, to go along

> > with the release splash for Fedora 15, we'd like to make special request

> > that for this release we use the GNOME background in the Fedora GNOME

> > packages and hence in the default Fedora desktop.

>

> As I understood the opinions in the latest team IRC meeting, blog

> comments, mailing list discussions and direct contacts with community

> members, the general opinion is such a move would be detrimental to

> Fedora's own image and of little use for GNOME promotion.

>

> > I want to be clear that this is not in any way saying that we don't like

> > the Fedora backgrounds ... the recent Fedora backgrounds are great, and

> > keep on getting cleaner and more professional looking every release. The

> > issue is rather a question of trying to provide a single look for the

> > GNOME 3 release rather than a series of looks, one per distribution.

>

> Can you name at least one other *relevant* distro that will use the same

> background as default? Especially if they know this may be *our* default?

>

> > Â* * What about the rest of the artwork?

> >

> > Â* Â* I think trying to adapt the entire set of artwork in Fedora to have

> > Â* Â* different looks for different spins is probably more confusing then

> > Â* Â* anything else. The GNOME default background matches pretty well with

> > Â* Â* the Fedora look, so it's not going to be jarring to switch to it

> > Â* Â* after seeing the standard Fedora artwork for boot.

>

> Case in point: the GDM background would be the same as the GNOME

> background or as the general-purpose background used by all the other

> spins? Which one of the spins will have an inconsistent experience? The

> same about the Plymouth colors. We are supposed to use *vertical

> stripes* or not in GRUB, Anaconda, firstboot etc.? How about website

> identity?



I'm not against even making theme based on Gnome/KDE stripes - it should work

for both Gnome 3 and other desktops and still retains our Identity. Gnome 3

would have stripes based theme but with Fedora feel there - win and profit for

both projects!



Last time I proposed it, it wasn't accepted but still I think this can work. It

could bring some "personality" to spins - to combine upstream themes with Fedora

ones. But it involves much more work.



R.

--

Jaroslav ŘeznÃ*k <jreznik@redhat.com>

Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno



Office: +420 532 294 275

Mobile: +420 602 797 774

Red Hat, Inc. Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* http://cz.redhat.com/

_______________________________________________

design-team mailing list

design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org

https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team

_______________________________________________
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design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
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GNOME background in Fedora 15
 

Rgds, Caius 'kaio' Chance - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:kaiogg

On 17/12/2010 9:23 PM, "Fabian A. Scherschel" <fab@sixgun.org> wrote:

>

> Wow..... Just heard about this now. With all due respect, this is BULLSHIT. You are telling me you couldn't have told the team earlier? Maybe BEFORE we all started ramping up to do the F15 wallpaper? This decision must've been in the works for quite some time.


>

> This is disappointing as hell. I had expected nonsense like that within the Ubuntu community, but not with Fedora. This would've been a chance to really set Fedora apart and create the best Gnome 3 experience everywhere in an open and transparent way.Â*We've said so since the last GUADEC.Â*That is what the Design Team is for. If we just dictate a wallpaper from up hight, that maybe transparent but it's not open. At least not in my understanding of it. And now this, out of nowhere. What exactly is the Design Team doing for F15 now? Why are we even there at all?


>

> Sorry if this sounds pissed off, but that is basically the way I feel right now.

>

>

>

> # Fabian A. Scherschel

> # Host & Producer, Sixgun Productions

> # Member, Fedora Design Team

>

>

>

> On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Jaroslav Reznik <jreznik@redhat.com> wrote:

>>

>> On Friday, December 17, 2010 08:10:44 am Nicu Buculei wrote:

>> > On 12/17/2010 01:54 AM, Owen Taylor wrote:

>> > > We want Fedora to be the showcase for GNOME 3 and to be a good example

>> > > to other distributions about how to package GNOME 3. So, to go along

>> > > with the release splash for Fedora 15, we'd like to make special request

>> > > that for this release we use the GNOME background in the Fedora GNOME

>> > > packages and hence in the default Fedora desktop.

>> >

>> > As I understood the opinions in the latest team IRC meeting, blog

>> > comments, mailing list discussions and direct contacts with community

>> > members, the general opinion is such a move would be detrimental to

>> > Fedora's own image and of little use for GNOME promotion.

>> >

>> > > I want to be clear that this is not in any way saying that we don't like

>> > > the Fedora backgrounds ... the recent Fedora backgrounds are great, and

>> > > keep on getting cleaner and more professional looking every release. The

>> > > issue is rather a question of trying to provide a single look for the

>> > > GNOME 3 release rather than a series of looks, one per distribution.

>> >

>> > Can you name at least one other *relevant* distro that will use the same

>> > background as default? Especially if they know this may be *our* default?

>> >

>> > > Â* * What about the rest of the artwork?

>> > >

>> > > Â* Â* I think trying to adapt the entire set of artwork in Fedora to have

>> > > Â* Â* different looks for different spins is probably more confusing then

>> > > Â* Â* anything else. The GNOME default background matches pretty well with

>> > > Â* Â* the Fedora look, so it's not going to be jarring to switch to it

>> > > Â* Â* after seeing the standard Fedora artwork for boot.

>> >

>> > Case in point: the GDM background would be the same as the GNOME

>> > background or as the general-purpose background used by all the other

>> > spins? Which one of the spins will have an inconsistent experience? The

>> > same about the Plymouth colors. We are supposed to use *vertical

>> > stripes* or not in GRUB, Anaconda, firstboot etc.? How about website

>> > identity?

>>

>> I'm not against even making theme based on Gnome/KDE stripes - it should work

>> for both Gnome 3 and other desktops and still retains our Identity. Gnome 3

>> would have stripes based theme but with Fedora feel there - win and profit for

>> both projects!

>>

>> Last time I proposed it, it wasn't accepted but still I think this can work. It

>> could bring some "personality" to spins - to combine upstream themes with Fedora

>> ones. But it involves much more work.

>>

>> R.

>> --

>> Jaroslav ŘeznÃ*k <jreznik@redhat.com>

>> Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno

>>

>> Office: +420 532 294 275

>> Mobile: +420 602 797 774

>> Red Hat, Inc. Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* http://cz.redhat.com/

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>

>

>

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Hi,


I had not been contributing to Design Team ever (too rusted to do).


The request from Gnome team sounds logical to them and they have their right for their stand point. However, this is somehow a damage to the oss community imho. The top 3 things an user notice the differences as a distro are booting screens, window theme, and default wallpaper! I am not here to bring on the flame, but acceptance of this disminish our Fedora identity and our branding as well.



Rgds,

K410

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GNOME background in Fedora 15
 

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 12:23:49PM +0100, Fabian A. Scherschel wrote:
> Wow..... Just heard about this now. With all due respect, this is BULLSHIT.
> You are telling me you couldn't have told the team earlier? Maybe BEFORE we
> all started ramping up to do the F15 wallpaper? This decision must've been
> in the works for quite some time.
>
> This is disappointing as hell. I had expected nonsense like that within the
> Ubuntu community, but not with Fedora. This would've been a chance to really
> set Fedora apart and create the best Gnome 3 experience everywhere in an
> open and transparent way. We've said so since the last GUADEC. That is what
> the Design Team is for. If we just dictate a wallpaper from up hight, that
> maybe transparent but it's not open. At least not in my understanding of it.
> And now this, out of nowhere. What exactly is the Design Team doing for F15
> now? Why are we even there at all?
>
> Sorry if this sounds pissed off, but that is basically the way I feel right
> now.

Can we cool down the rhetoric just a bit? That would really help this
discussion be more constructive, so thanks in advance Fab.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that sketching had just
begun for F15 wallpaper. Is this request undoing a really huge amount
of work? For instance, I don't see any entries yet here:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F15_Artwork

I'm not saying people haven't been coming up with good ideas! I'm
sure there's a lot of excitement over creating a cool F15 wallpaper.
What I'm saying is, as far as I can tell, the team isn't a mile down
the road already, and being asked to double back.

I'm looking at the Design team schedule here:
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-15/f-15-design-tasks.html

According to the schedule, the "Design wallpaper" task just started
three days ago. So it seems to me this request comes at a pretty good
time, seeing as how that task lasts about three weeks. We just don't
want to take all three weeks to debate and decide, then, right?

Personally, I really like the idea that Fedora is being asked to be
the tip of the spear showing off the new GNOME 3. A lot of work has
gone into it, and not just by people inside Red Hat, but by a wide
community of free software contributors. I think Jaroslav mentioned
that getting artwork to marry up might be a little more work. There
are still splashes, GRUB, supplemental wallpapers, and other work to
be done. But I also see there a *LOT* more contributors/ninjas on
this team than we've had, say, a couple years ago! And for the first
time we'll have a team lead who is 100% devoted-by-dayjob to
facilitating Design team work for the *entire* cycle. So it seems
doable, if the team wants to take on that challenge.

On top of that, I seem to recall that the Desktop Live image for F-15
was slated to be larger than CD-sized. If that's the case, with
proper coordination between teams, why not look into having an entire
set of supplemental wallpapers created by the Fedora Design team
included in the Desktop Live image? I'm not sure we've ever included
those by default before, but it would be a great way to let people
further customize their Fedora desktop, out of the box and in a Fedora
specific way if they want.

--
Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/
gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
Where open source multiplies: http://opensource.com
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GNOME background in Fedora 15
 

On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 09:10 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote:
> On 12/17/2010 01:54 AM, Owen Taylor wrote:
> >
> > We want Fedora to be the showcase for GNOME 3 and to be a good example
> > to other distributions about how to package GNOME 3. So, to go along
> > with the release splash for Fedora 15, we'd like to make special request
> > that for this release we use the GNOME background in the Fedora GNOME
> > packages and hence in the default Fedora desktop.
>
> As I understood the opinions in the latest team IRC meeting, blog
> comments, mailing list discussions and direct contacts with community
> members, the general opinion is such a move would be detrimental to
> Fedora's own image and of little use for GNOME promotion.

There certainly have been concerns and negative opinions expressed. My
goal here is to as best as possible address those concerns and explain
how this is important to GNOME and and a good thing in terms of Fedora
and GNOME working together. Which I think is a good thing for Fedora.

> > I want to be clear that this is not in any way saying that we don't like
> > the Fedora backgrounds ... the recent Fedora backgrounds are great, and
> > keep on getting cleaner and more professional looking every release. The
> > issue is rather a question of trying to provide a single look for the
> > GNOME 3 release rather than a series of looks, one per distribution.
>
> Can you name at least one other *relevant* distro that will use the same
> background as default? Especially if they know this may be *our* default?

I'll certainly talk to the OpenSuSE and Debian GNOME maintainers and try
to make convince them to make the same choice. I'm much more likely to
succeed in that request if I have the support of the Fedora design team
already lined up. And I really don't think how we configure our desktop
should be held hostage to getting Debian to do the same thing. Fedora
should be a leader here in working well with upstream.

> > * What about the rest of the artwork?
> >
> > I think trying to adapt the entire set of artwork in Fedora to have
> > different looks for different spins is probably more confusing then
> > anything else. The GNOME default background matches pretty well with
> > the Fedora look, so it's not going to be jarring to switch to it
> > after seeing the standard Fedora artwork for boot.
>
> Case in point: the GDM background would be the same as the GNOME
> background or as the general-purpose background used by all the other
> spins? Which one of the spins will have an inconsistent experience? The
> same about the Plymouth colors. We are supposed to use *vertical
> stripes* or not in GRUB, Anaconda, firstboot etc.? How about website
> identity?

My proposal is is straightforward:

Once you select a user and log in to GNOME, you get the GNOME default
background. All other artwork follows normal Fedora procedures.

While there are some mockups about how we'd like GDM to look like to
match the rest of GNOME 3 (See
http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-shell-design/plain/mockups/static/user-selector.png
) they aren't going to be implemented in this cycle, so there's already
a visual transition between the login screen and the desktop.

- Owen


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GNOME background in Fedora 15
 

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 2:16 PM, Paul W. Frields <stickster@gmail.com> wrote:



Can we cool down the rhetoric just a bit? *That would really help this

discussion be more constructive, so thanks in advance Fab.

That implies that there actually *is* a discussion. From what I've read so far, this "special request" wasn't a request at all and didn't sound like something that was really negotiable.
*


Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that sketching had just

begun for F15 wallpaper. *Is this request undoing a really huge amount

of work? *For instance, I don't see any entries yet here:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F15_Artwork
I think all who worked on this so far were under the impression that we were working on the default wallpaper. Of course, this isn't undoing any work but I think it's a huge disappointment for the people who were working on this. I couldn't make the actual meeting but I was prepared to put a lot of effort into a wallpaper proposal, I'm not sure the arrangement that we have now warrants that.
**
According to the schedule, the "Design wallpaper" task just started

three days ago. *So it seems to me this request comes at a pretty good

time, seeing as how that task lasts about three weeks. *We just don't

want to take all three weeks to debate and decide, then, right?

OK, let me put this bluntly: This "request", if it goes through, will take away maybe 80% of what the team actually influences in a release for the F15 cycle. At least that's my impression (keep in mind that I haven't been with the team all that long). You are basically asking us to put aside all previously established pratices on voting for the final default wallpaper among several wallpaper candidates prepared by the team and third parties. And who knows if this isn't going to be the way we'll do it from here on out? As much as I like Fedora's upstream policy, applying that to artwork is silly IMHO. Either that or having a Design Team at all is.*
*


Personally, I really like the idea that Fedora is being asked to be

the tip of the spear showing off the new GNOME 3. *A lot of work has

gone into it, and not just by people inside Red Hat, but by a wide

community of free software contributors.
Nobody is doubting that. But does that mean we have to ship the default wallpaper? If we had known this earlier, maybe we could've been involved in the creation of that default wallpaper then.... I have been saying for ages that having a kickass Gnome 3 setup could be a really huge step in setting Fedora apart visually (something that is badly needed IMO) and I can't really see how shipping the default wallpaper in Fedora is helping Gnome Shell. If Gnome Shell is really defined by their wallpaper, we have a lot bigger problems than I though...

*


On top of that, I seem to recall that the Desktop Live image for F-15

was slated to be larger than CD-sized. *If that's the case, with

proper coordination between teams, why not look into having an entire

set of supplemental wallpapers created by the Fedora Design team

included in the Desktop Live image? *I'm not sure we've ever included

those by default before, but it would be a great way to let people

further customize their Fedora desktop, out of the box and in a Fedora

specific way if they want.


That sounds great, but it sure sounds to me like you're trying to appease the Design Team for having its biggest responsibility taken away. As I said, I have no clue when the idea to ship the default Gnome art came up or where exactly it originated but I think the whole Design Team should have been included in the discussion right then and there.

Fab*
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