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Old 12-18-2010, 07:21 AM
Luya Tshimbalanga
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

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On 17/12/10 01:19 AM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:

> On Friday, December 17, 2010
05:26:57 am tshimulu@gmail.com wrote:

>> Thank you for providing summary about bg theme proposal
for fedora 15.

>

>> Issue on kde side was the absence of such request with
kde 4.0 release

>> triggering the unfortunate "DE wars."

>

> Which request? Long time ago - we were thinking about
actually the same as the

> plan for merging Gnome theme with Fedora is now. It wasn't
received very well

> and I'm happy it wasn't accepted - instead we have now a
great Fedora themes all

> around the whole Fedora as a project! We have real Fedora
identity!!! I don't

> want to be just a demo version for any desktop - Gnome, KDE,
whatever ;-)

>

> Make Love(lock), not war ;-)

>

> R.

You are right. There were no request from KDE team at that time.

Having seen the stripe background for Gnome 3, I think it works very
well with Fedora because the colour scheme

matches with its identity as Paul mentioned.

Because the event is mainly for Fedora 15 as Owen clarified, I
favour desktop team request. Beside, Gnome 3 uses Cantarell* as
default fonts which was the idea within design team for a long time
IIRC. For me, this event is a good break for design team that can
focus on other stuffs like packaging, revamping Anaconda installer
layout.



- --

Luya Tshimbalanga

Graphic & Web Designer

E: luya@fedoraproject.org

W: http://www.thefinalzone.net

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Old 12-18-2010, 07:58 AM
Martin Sourada
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 18:53 -0500, Owen Taylor wrote:
> On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 18:11 -0500, Ricky Zhou wrote:
> > On 2010-12-17 11:03:39 AM, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> > > If we as a team choose to consider Owen's request, there won't be brand
> > > confusion between Fedora and GNOME - the Fedora brand will be strong
> > > from the website / DVD sleeve through the install and bootup process
> > > (Fedora splash graphics for the installer & firstboot, syslinux &
> > > grub... Fedora logo for plymouth) and when it gets to the desktop part
> > > it'll be neutral... not GNOME. Although I'm think the default webpage in
> > > the browser will be a Fedora start page too, so Fedora branding doesn't
> > > quite end at the desktop.
> > I don't think there will necessarily be brand confusion, but I do think
> > that our brand would be slightly weakened if this proposal passes. One
> > of the reasons that I always stick with the default wallpaper (aside
> > from how great it looks) is so that anybody who even gets a glance of my
> > screen can tell that I'm running Fedora, and maybe even strike up a
> > conversation about it :-). While all of the other branding is still
> > very important, the wallpaper is really the only piece that will be seen
> > by other people, and I don't want to lose that by default.
>
> If our proposal is accepted, you'll definitely have the option of
> switching to the Fedora wallpaper with 3 clicks of the mouse.
>
> I think it also will be very clear to anybody looking at your Fedora 15
> desktop, whatever the wallpaper, that:
>
> - It's not Windows 7
> - It's not OS X Snow Leopard
> - It's not Ubuntu Unity
>
Will it be clear that:
* It's not OpenSUSE?
* It's not Debian?

Ubuntu isn't the only other major distro and when it comes to community
driven effort, Debian is IMHO our main competitor.

Martin
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Old 12-18-2010, 08:08 AM
Onyeibo Oku
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

On 12/18/2010 09:58 AM, Martin Sourada wrote:

> Will it be clear that:
> * It's not OpenSUSE?
> * It's not Debian?
>
> Ubuntu isn't the only other major distro and when it comes to community
> driven effort, Debian is IMHO our main competitor.
>
> Martin

Maybe if openSUSE adopted a green version of the stripes and Debian had
a tinge of Red to it. Then the Gnome design people would have
effectively given other distro-based designers a holiday too.

I see legitimate concerns from both sides and the fact that the
wallpaper (in question) is blue, makes the Gnome proposal attractive. If
this is really a one-time thing and other distros buy it ... I think we
can live with it (though I wish Fedora had a stronger set of icon themes
to match the coming gnome graphics ... we could score great points there)

--
Oku Onyeibo
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:twohot
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Old 12-18-2010, 08:10 AM
Martin Sourada
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 20:23 -0500, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> Hi Martin,
>
> On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 22:28 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote:
> > IMHO this would lessen Fedora's visual identity a lot. Imagine you boot
> > a F15 Desktop Live and what you see is almost pristine GNOME 3 desktop.
> > Where's Fedora in it? Where's our own visual identity in it?
>
> Our visual identity would (if the proposal is accepted) be present on
> the website, on the DVD disc labels and sleeves, in syslinux, in the
> installer, in firstboot, in plymouth, and on the login screen. The
> wallpaper we design will be the default for GDM.
>
That's not what you see when you boot and log-in to desktop. When
someone peeks around my shoulder he should be something like, "oh you're
using fedora!", if I use default settings. Furthermore -- if the GDM and
plymouth are different from wallpaper, we're breaking the smoothness in
desktop spin.

> I honestly don't remember the KDE SIG ever approaching us with this
> request. And honestly why would they? - they aren't the default
> download, so it's not up to this team, it's up to the KDE SIG what to
> do. This team, the design team, has purview over the default wallpaper
> in the default Fedora. Spins have always been able to change their
> wallpapers as they've liked, and we've even designed alternative
> wallpapers for them at their request (e.g., Education Spin and Security
> Spin.)
>
Spin authors have usually two options
* use fedora visual identity
* use spin-specific visual identity

I believe the "desktop" spins, i.e. Desktop, KDE, LXDE and XFCE, should
fall ideally into the first category, while the others, which are
usually thematic (like Security, Education, FEL), fall into the other
category. However the final decision is always on the spin maintainers.

> > OK, so upstream wants to promote GNOME 3. I'm not a fan of gnome-shell
> > (quite the contrary), but let them do it. But why the visual identity?
> > It's the behaviour, the work-flow, the experience that makes GNOME 3
> > from end-user point of view, and it's the visual identity that makes our
> > distro Fedora from end-user POV (among other things, but the visual
> > identity is the first thing you see).
>
> They believe the stripes is part of their upstream visual identity. To
> be fair, they are producing a lot of nice visual materials including
> videos that have the stripes - because as a DE they must remain neutral
> wrt distros, so they obviously cannot pick a favorite in choosing a
> wallpaper. They would like the visual identity then across
> GNOME-produced materials and Fedora materials and materials produced by
> journalists and other reviewers checking out GNOME 3 via Fedora to be
> consistent. This makes sense to me. After F15, it won't be as big a deal
> since all the hooplah will be over, so at that point we can go back to
> the standard operating procedure.
>
This makes perfect sense up to the first mention of Fedora to me.

> > So in short, let's be *first* to ship GNOME 3 and let's be *first* to
> > ship it with our own visual identity. We, the fedora design team, should
> > be leaders in our area as well ;-)
>
> I am unsure if we will be the first to ship GNOME 3. Certainly we will
> be first to ship it by default. I don't understand how we are being
> leaders in what you suggest here.
>
Being the first community that is able to create and maintain a full
Fedora visual identity.

Martin
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Old 12-18-2010, 09:59 AM
Catalin
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

Why not do a trick. We can use default wallpapers from KDE, Gnome,
XFCE and then use a script to put the fedora logo on the screen.
Something like:
http://catalin-festila.blogspot.com/2010/12/christmas-new-decor-script-for-your.html
The advantage is that we can customize how we want.
If we want to go further, then we synchronize the script with a
calendar on your desktop and can display images and text according to
major events.
Good luck.

--
My sites:
http://catalin-festila.blogspot.com -about me
http://tv.free-tutorials.org - video tutorials
http://python-catalin.blogspot.com - my python blog
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Old 12-18-2010, 01:10 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

On Sat, 2010-12-18 at 10:10 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote:
> That's not what you see when you boot and log-in to desktop. When
> someone peeks around my shoulder he should be something like, "oh you're
> using fedora!", if I use default settings. Furthermore -- if the GDM and
> plymouth are different from wallpaper, we're breaking the smoothness in
> desktop spin.

Does this really happen to you though? To be quite honest, when I use my
laptop at a coffeeshop in the Cambridge-Boston area (arguably a pretty
tech-savvy area), I've either been asked, "Is that Linux?" or "Is that
Ubuntu?" I have never been asked, "Is that Fedora?"

Since the wallpaper is blue and honestly not that different in style
that the wallpapers we typically do, I can't see it causing much of a
break with the other splashes, especially since we are aware of it
upfront right now and can account for it in our designs.

> Spin authors have usually two options
> * use fedora visual identity
> * use spin-specific visual identity
>
> I believe the "desktop" spins, i.e. Desktop, KDE, LXDE and XFCE, should
> fall ideally into the first category, while the others, which are
> usually thematic (like Security, Education, FEL), fall into the other
> category. However the final decision is always on the spin maintainers.

But this is not a policy, and never has been. This team right now does
not have that say. It would likely be up to the board to give us that.
But it doesn't make sense according to what you said above, because if
someone is using the Education spin at a coffee shop what are they going
to say?


> > They believe the stripes is part of their upstream visual identity. To
> > be fair, they are producing a lot of nice visual materials including
> > videos that have the stripes - because as a DE they must remain neutral
> > wrt distros, so they obviously cannot pick a favorite in choosing a
> > wallpaper. They would like the visual identity then across
> > GNOME-produced materials and Fedora materials and materials produced by
> > journalists and other reviewers checking out GNOME 3 via Fedora to be
> > consistent. This makes sense to me. After F15, it won't be as big a deal
> > since all the hooplah will be over, so at that point we can go back to
> > the standard operating procedure.
> >
> This makes perfect sense up to the first mention of Fedora to me.

Can you explain why you are confused? How does it not make sense that
Fedora is not going to get more downloads and attention as a result of
the GNOME 3 release?
>
> > > So in short, let's be *first* to ship GNOME 3 and let's be *first* to
> > > ship it with our own visual identity. We, the fedora design team, should
> > > be leaders in our area as well ;-)
> >
> > I am unsure if we will be the first to ship GNOME 3. Certainly we will
> > be first to ship it by default. I don't understand how we are being
> > leaders in what you suggest here.
> >
> Being the first community that is able to create and maintain a full
> Fedora visual identity.

I don't understand we've been doing that for a long time... what has it
bought us?

~m

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Old 12-18-2010, 01:15 PM
Catalin
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

Why not do a trick. We can use default wallpapers from KDE, Gnome,
XFCE and then use a script to put the fedora logo on the screen.
Something like:
http://catalin-festila.blogspot.com/2010/12/christmas-new-decor-script-for-your.html
The advantage is that we can customize how we want.
If we want to go further, then we synchronize the script with a
calendar on your desktop and can display images and text according to
major events.
Good luck.
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Old 12-18-2010, 03:04 PM
Nicolas Mailhot
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

Le samedi 18 décembre 2010 ŕ 09:10 -0500, Máirín Duffy a écrit :

> I don't understand we've been doing that for a long time... what has it
> bought us?

Máirín,

You underestimate the team achievements. The design work in recent
releases is one of the things that made Fedora a mature distribution (as
opposed to the early years of fumbling)

Thought I'd really love to see less blue and abstract designs. And the
GNOME 3 proposal is overmuch both of those.

--
Nicolas Mailhot

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Old 12-18-2010, 03:32 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

On Sat, 2010-12-18 at 17:04 +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> Le samedi 18 décembre 2010 ŕ 09:10 -0500, Máirín Duffy a écrit :
>
> > I don't understand we've been doing that for a long time... what has it
> > bought us?

> You underestimate the team achievements. The design work in recent
> releases is one of the things that made Fedora a mature distribution (as
> opposed to the early years of fumbling)
>
> Thought I'd really love to see less blue and abstract designs. And the
> GNOME 3 proposal is overmuch both of those.

Oh I absolutely agree on that Nicolas. The thing I'm not sure we can say
though is that we've gained 'coffeeshop recognition' or a growth in the
number of users due to the integration of artwork across desktops. I
think it takes more than that.

~m

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Old 12-18-2010, 08:49 PM
Martin Sourada
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

On Sat, 2010-12-18 at 09:10 -0500, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> On Sat, 2010-12-18 at 10:10 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote:
> > That's not what you see when you boot and log-in to desktop. When
> > someone peeks around my shoulder he should be something like, "oh you're
> > using fedora!", if I use default settings. Furthermore -- if the GDM and
> > plymouth are different from wallpaper, we're breaking the smoothness in
> > desktop spin.
>
> Does this really happen to you though? To be quite honest, when I use my
> laptop at a coffeeshop in the Cambridge-Boston area (arguably a pretty
> tech-savvy area), I've either been asked, "Is that Linux?" or "Is that
> Ubuntu?" I have never been asked, "Is that Fedora?"
>
Well, that's a bit of a problem. For many people linux=ubuntu... People
who know fedora will usually recognize it by the wallpaper, or in the
older releases with nodoka as well. I was at a scientific conference
last week and I was pretty pleased to see a few people whom I could tell
just by looking were using Fedora. With theme+wallpaper being the same
for F15 as for say Debian and OpenSUSE, we down to "just some linux".

> Since the wallpaper is blue and honestly not that different in style
> that the wallpapers we typically do, I can't see it causing much of a
> break with the other splashes, especially since we are aware of it
> upfront right now and can account for it in our designs.
>
Honestly, if I talk about the wallpaper in question specifically, I'd
have to say it would be a rather big step backwards in terms of our
artwork quality, and while it looks professional, it's over too
simplistic, generic, non-catchy and retro looking (purely my personal
opinion).

> > Spin authors have usually two options
> > * use fedora visual identity
> > * use spin-specific visual identity
> >
> > I believe the "desktop" spins, i.e. Desktop, KDE, LXDE and XFCE, should
> > fall ideally into the first category, while the others, which are
> > usually thematic (like Security, Education, FEL), fall into the other
> > category. However the final decision is always on the spin maintainers.
>
> But this is not a policy, and never has been. This team right now does
> not have that say. It would likely be up to the board to give us that.
> But it doesn't make sense according to what you said above, because if
> someone is using the Education spin at a coffee shop what are they going
> to say?
I didn't suggest it should be a policy, just that it's a good-to-have.
IMHO the thematic spins are beyond "just Fedora" to the point that they
could have their own visual identity, maybe based on the general fedora
look. Here the idea is not "oh, look it's fedora" but something along
the lines "oh, it's FEL Spin, that's the cool thingie for engineers,
based on Fedora!". In a way, thematic spins are downstream for fedora,
while desktop spins are just a flavour -- you want, say, LXDE desktop on
Fedora, so you go and download LXDE Spin instead of the usual one --
it's also a way to tell our users: "look we don't care about GNOME only,
we also have teams of people dedicated to make KDE users happy too!"

What I'd like to say is that Spin maintainers are to decide what brand,
what visual identity they want to promote -- their theme, or fedora, or
some combination? And our team exists to help them achieve it (among
other things). However Fedora goes beyond spins, there's also the
traditional Installation DVD, people use applications from across all
DEs at the same time. Using a pristine upstream visual identity for some
DE would make some sense for a spin made with the exact purpose of
following upstream in every aspect, something upstream could point their
users to as a reference implementation. Not for a default flavour of a
linux distribution. Or that is what I think.

>
> > > They believe the stripes is part of their upstream visual identity. To
> > > be fair, they are producing a lot of nice visual materials including
> > > videos that have the stripes - because as a DE they must remain neutral
> > > wrt distros, so they obviously cannot pick a favorite in choosing a
> > > wallpaper. They would like the visual identity then across
> > > GNOME-produced materials and Fedora materials and materials produced by
> > > journalists and other reviewers checking out GNOME 3 via Fedora to be
> > > consistent. This makes sense to me. After F15, it won't be as big a deal
> > > since all the hooplah will be over, so at that point we can go back to
> > > the standard operating procedure.
> > >
> > This makes perfect sense up to the first mention of Fedora to me.
>
> Can you explain why you are confused? How does it not make sense that
> Fedora is not going to get more downloads and attention as a result of
> the GNOME 3 release?
How I'm confused? How is a visual appearance a block for reusing a
video? There's nothing stopping us from telling users: "look this is how
awesome F15 looks and if you'd like to know more about the awesomeness
of GNOME 3, which will shortly hit other distros as well, there're tons
of videos on this project." We would have more attention if we were
promoted on gnome.org, or just because we would use GNOME 3, not because
we would use pristine GNOME 3 in terms of default look.

How does visual identity shared among distros help promoting GNOME 3? It
certainly does not help promoting the distros -- when you can't tell
them apart at first look, what the point to differentiate at all (yeah,
I know I'm oversimplifying a lot)?

> I don't understand we've been doing that for a long time... what has it
> bought us?
I believe Nicolas more-or-less answered this. But to broaden it a bit --
our artwork is not completely consistent across desktops. When you run a
QT app under GNOME or vise versa it will still look out of place and not
because of the difference of widget placing. What we've been doing these
past few releases is just a tip of the iceberg, but we've improved a
great deal. To the point that our team is well known (in a positive
sense) in the linux community and that is something to be proud of.

Martin
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