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Old 12-17-2010, 03:12 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 11:01 -0500, Owen Taylor wrote:
> If the team doing the default Fedora desktop switched and did a GNOME
> remix instead this cycle, who would do the default Fedora desktop?
> (I'm sure you'd be happy to switch the default to KDE for this cycle,
> but... ;-)
>
> And how would we distinguish between the two different downloads when
> presenting options to the user? We'd basically be offering the user the
> choice between two different almost identical things because we couldn't
> come to a decision.

Yeh unfortunately I kind of think such a spin would be hard to not dub
the "political mess spin" and would likely be an embarrassment for us as
a project :-/ I say this having worked with some of you on our new
website download pages. It would *not* be an easy job to come up with
the wording there.

> My suggestion to you guys if we go this route is really to keep the
> change as minimal as possible and proceed as normal with the other
> desktop backgrounds and the rest of the art.
>
> Obviously if the art team feels its a waste of time to do a set of art
> when the background image in that art set is only an optional choice
> within GNOME then something else will have to be figured out, but it
> seems that there still is a lot of exposure to the art set elsewhere and
> on other desktops.

It is also worth pointing out that our design will be visible in the
default download behind GDM so it will get exposure in the default
download besides syslinux / grub / anaconda / firstboot... Syslinux in
F15 btw is going to look a LOT nicer I've been poking at it a bit
http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/11/18/fedora-installation-user-experience-improvements-syslinux/

~m

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Old 12-17-2010, 03:26 PM
Jaroslav Reznik
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

On Friday, December 17, 2010 05:03:39 pm MáirÃ*n Duffy wrote:
> Hi Nicu,
>
> It is true that KDE 4.5 shipped with a wallpaper that is strikingly
> similar to the GNOME 3 wallpaper, but I've talked to a few KDE users and
> it seems that it was not ever set as the default wallpaper for a KDE
> release so it doesn't have the same brand attachment to KDE that the
> GNOME 3 team is looking to achieve.

Indeed, it's not default Plasma Desktop wallpaper - but of course - we can ship
it if needed.

R.

> ~m
>
>
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--
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Old 12-17-2010, 08:28 PM
Martin Sourada
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

Hi Máirín,

On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 11:03 -0500, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> So there's a few things to consider here.... for example, the GNOME
> marketing team is actually engaged in an effort to create a series of
> videos showing off different aspects of GNOME 3 for the launch (some
> details here: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeMarketing/Gnome3In30Seconds ...
> I saw one of the videos at the Boston Summit but I'm not sure where they
> are online, I'll look for a copy though - they are impressive!) If they
> use the default GNOME wallpaper, but we use a different wallpaper,
> there's a missed opportunity for shared materials there. E.g., we could
> use the videos (which are openly licensed of course!) as part of our
> website without having to modify them or re-shoot them.
>
> It is true that KDE 4.5 shipped with a wallpaper that is strikingly
> similar to the GNOME 3 wallpaper, but I've talked to a few KDE users and
> it seems that it was not ever set as the default wallpaper for a KDE
> release so it doesn't have the same brand attachment to KDE that the
> GNOME 3 team is looking to achieve.
>
> Another thing to think about is the larger struggle between upstreams'
> branding and downstream branding. GNOME 3 isn't trying to produce a
> desktop that shoves the GNOME foot in your face constantly and competes
> with the Fedora brand. The GNOME logo really doesn't appear anywhere. I
> think they are going for a more neutral look that won't override the
> distro branding leading up to the desktop, and won't confuse users over
> what they are using.
IMHO this would lessen Fedora's visual identity a lot. Imagine you boot
a F15 Desktop Live and what you see is almost pristine GNOME 3 desktop.
Where's Fedora in it? Where's our own visual identity in it? Moreover,
KDE shipped our wallpaper with the 4.0 release, why should we treat
GNOME differently? Is it some new trend?

OK, so upstream wants to promote GNOME 3. I'm not a fan of gnome-shell
(quite the contrary), but let them do it. But why the visual identity?
It's the behaviour, the work-flow, the experience that makes GNOME 3
from end-user point of view, and it's the visual identity that makes our
distro Fedora from end-user POV (among other things, but the visual
identity is the first thing you see).

So in short, let's be *first* to ship GNOME 3 and let's be *first* to
ship it with our own visual identity. We, the fedora design team, should
be leaders in our area as well ;-)

Martin

PS: If majority would support us shipping default GNOME 3 wallpaper as
our default in GNOME 3 "spin", instead of having it in prominent place
in bg-chooser applet, I'd yield.
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Old 12-17-2010, 09:30 PM
"Fabian A. Scherschel"
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Owen Taylor <otaylor@redhat.com> wrote:


Our general approach with the GNOME components in Fedora is to work

upstream whenever possible. It's very seldom that there's a change that

makes sense in Fedora that doesn't make sense upstream. So we try to

just do the change upstream.



I think we'd see the art the same way; if the icons can be improved, if

we can do a more attractive widget theme, then we should do that for

GNOME.

I appreciate what you are trying to do here, but to be honest, if I had wanted to work on the Gnome 3 look and feel I had joined the Gnome Design Team. As it stands, I have chosen to work on Fedora's design and you can't deny that you are trying to substantially neuter the impact of our team and of Fedora branding as a whole here...

*


So, I guess we haven't necessarily seen the need for a big process to

design artwork for GNOME 3 in Fedora 15 that is separate from the normal

flow to design artwork for GNOME 3. The GNOME artists are very friendly

and open to people getting involved. You can find them on #gnome-art and

#gnome-design on GimpNet.



Obviously, there's work to be done to coordinate the user experience for

GNOME 3 and Fedora and make it fit together - at every level from how

the websites interact on down. There's still a few months to make that

happen.

So I guess what you're saying is that wallpapers should be upstream from now on and we should divert our attention elsewhere?*
Fab

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Old 12-17-2010, 09:42 PM
"Fabian A. Scherschel"
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 4:49 PM, Paul W. Frields <stickster@gmail.com> wrote:



I just read the post here by Owen and it specifically says "request."

Anything else is reportage or inference.

Is it? I wasn't attending the meeting but it really looks like it is being pushed through to me. I mean, honestly, who on the Design Team would be in favour of this and why? I strongly urge those who are to speak out. I am not saying this is a conspiracy, all I am saying is that it's against how I understood we've done things in the past and it takes away a big hallmark of the Design Team work for a reason that surely don't benefits the team members as design contributers.

*
It's precisely because Owen understands the visibility of the

wallpaper that he went to great length to explain the nature of his

request. *So it's unfair to say anyone's not sensitive to that,

because that seems to me to be the entire reason the request was made.

I'd hope we're not becoming a team or project that has no ability to

constructively address requests or find ways to promote great free

software.

Maybe we as the Design Team should vote publicly on the request then.





Check out Owen's request again to see if it helps clarify this. *He

indicated this is a one-time branding opportunity to help GNOME 3 with

marketing their release, and specifically set out reasons for the

request.

How exactly is it that they need marketing? They will be the default in Fedora and the official future of the Gnome project. I can see how Unity needs branding and a marketing boost, but that's because they aren't the official upstream shell. Did people need to explicitely advertise Nautilus when Gnome 2 came out?

*


I'm not trying to appease anyone, I'm simply saying why I personally

feel this could be a worthwhile one-time concession. *Agree or

disagree, but it's not necessary to attach conspiracy theories. *I

found out at the same time you did (well, later really, since I came

into the discussion late, not being at the meeting, for which I

apologize!).

Sorry, I really didn't want to make it sound like a conspiracy. It's just that they way Mo talked about this special request looked a bit odd in the IRC logs. Once again, I am sorry I couldn't be there and ask the questions in person at the time.
*


And personally I think creating wallpaper is not the biggest

responsibility for the Design team. *It may be one of the most widely

visible ones, but it's not the most important IMHO. *I think the most

important responsibility of the team is handling the many requests for

design from the community that come up regularly, both connected to

releases and for completely ad-hoc tasks. *Those requests help Fedora

contributors have amazing presence at shows, create cool displays,

attract people to the project, and so forth. *Wallpaper is part of

that responsibility, traditionally, but I don't think it's the

overwhelming majority.
OK, we definitely have a different view of the team then. Maybe it is because I haven't been on board that long. All I know is that people outside Fedora think that's what we are doing... May be a communication / PR issue then.

Fab**
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Old 12-17-2010, 10:11 PM
Ricky Zhou
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

On 2010-12-17 11:03:39 AM, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> If we as a team choose to consider Owen's request, there won't be brand
> confusion between Fedora and GNOME - the Fedora brand will be strong
> from the website / DVD sleeve through the install and bootup process
> (Fedora splash graphics for the installer & firstboot, syslinux &
> grub... Fedora logo for plymouth) and when it gets to the desktop part
> it'll be neutral... not GNOME. Although I'm think the default webpage in
> the browser will be a Fedora start page too, so Fedora branding doesn't
> quite end at the desktop.
I don't think there will necessarily be brand confusion, but I do think
that our brand would be slightly weakened if this proposal passes. One
of the reasons that I always stick with the default wallpaper (aside
from how great it looks) is so that anybody who even gets a glance of my
screen can tell that I'm running Fedora, and maybe even strike up a
conversation about it :-). While all of the other branding is still
very important, the wallpaper is really the only piece that will be seen
by other people, and I don't want to lose that by default.

Thanks,
Ricky
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Old 12-17-2010, 10:48 PM
Owen Taylor
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 22:28 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote:
> Hi Máirín,
>
> On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 11:03 -0500, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> > So there's a few things to consider here.... for example, the GNOME
> > marketing team is actually engaged in an effort to create a series of
> > videos showing off different aspects of GNOME 3 for the launch (some
> > details here: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeMarketing/Gnome3In30Seconds ...
> > I saw one of the videos at the Boston Summit but I'm not sure where they
> > are online, I'll look for a copy though - they are impressive!) If they
> > use the default GNOME wallpaper, but we use a different wallpaper,
> > there's a missed opportunity for shared materials there. E.g., we could
> > use the videos (which are openly licensed of course!) as part of our
> > website without having to modify them or re-shoot them.
> >
> > It is true that KDE 4.5 shipped with a wallpaper that is strikingly
> > similar to the GNOME 3 wallpaper, but I've talked to a few KDE users and
> > it seems that it was not ever set as the default wallpaper for a KDE
> > release so it doesn't have the same brand attachment to KDE that the
> > GNOME 3 team is looking to achieve.
> >
> > Another thing to think about is the larger struggle between upstreams'
> > branding and downstream branding. GNOME 3 isn't trying to produce a
> > desktop that shoves the GNOME foot in your face constantly and competes
> > with the Fedora brand. The GNOME logo really doesn't appear anywhere. I
> > think they are going for a more neutral look that won't override the
> > distro branding leading up to the desktop, and won't confuse users over
> > what they are using.
> IMHO this would lessen Fedora's visual identity a lot. Imagine you boot
> a F15 Desktop Live and what you see is almost pristine GNOME 3 desktop.
> Where's Fedora in it? Where's our own visual identity in it? Moreover,
> KDE shipped our wallpaper with the 4.0 release, why should we treat
> GNOME differently? Is it some new trend?

I don't think that what was done for the KDE spin for KDE 4 has to be
considered some sort of precedent - as far as I know the equivalent
request was never made, and if the KDE SIG had made the equivalent
request, I hope the the design team would have been open to it.

In general, the way we try to create the Fedora desktop is to create a
great desktop upstream and then ship that in GNOME. So, in most ways the
Fedora desktop is in fact pretty close to a pristine GNOME desktop.

I know that the tension between this approach and the desire of the
Fedora design team to create a distinct Fedora visual identity is
probably a sore subject, especially when it comes to theming and the
switch from Nodoka to the standard GNOME theme.

But I want to be very clear that we're not trying to conflate together
widget theme and background here. They are quite different - in the area
of widget theme, GNOME is moving towards having only a single standard
theme - it's very hard on application authors to have to make their
application look good with many different themes. But the background is
absolutely a point of user personalization. And it's a point of
distribution customization as well.

We're simply making the request for this release, for Fedora 15, we not
do that customization. Because we think that it will make the story we
tell to the media and to the user about GNOME 3 and Fedora better and
more compelling.

> OK, so upstream wants to promote GNOME 3. I'm not a fan of gnome-shell
> (quite the contrary), but let them do it. But why the visual identity?
> It's the behaviour, the work-flow, the experience that makes GNOME 3
> from end-user point of view, and it's the visual identity that makes our
> distro Fedora from end-user POV (among other things, but the visual
> identity is the first thing you see).

Visual identity is powerful. That's, in fact, why we care so much about
the artwork in Fedora. If visual identity didn't matter, we wouldn't be
having this conversation. Most of the time GNOME is pretty much
inevitably something that fades into the background. If the user
downloaded and installed something called Fedora the fact that a large
fraction of the user experience is "GNOME" is just completely irrelevant
to them. But with GNOME 3, we want a big splash; I think the thousands
of people that contribute to GNOME deserve a big splash every decade or
so :-) ... and that's much more effective if we can have a single visual
identity for the GNOME 3 rather than a series of visual identities.

> So in short, let's be *first* to ship GNOME 3 and let's be *first* to
> ship it with our own visual identity. We, the fedora design team, should
> be leaders in our area as well ;-)

> PS: If majority would support us shipping default GNOME 3 wallpaper as
> our default in GNOME 3 "spin", instead of having it in prominent place
> in bg-chooser applet, I'd yield.

The reasons why I think a GNOME spin doesn't really make sense were
explained in an earlier email.

- Owen


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Old 12-17-2010, 10:53 PM
Owen Taylor
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 18:11 -0500, Ricky Zhou wrote:
> On 2010-12-17 11:03:39 AM, Máirín Duffy wrote:
> > If we as a team choose to consider Owen's request, there won't be brand
> > confusion between Fedora and GNOME - the Fedora brand will be strong
> > from the website / DVD sleeve through the install and bootup process
> > (Fedora splash graphics for the installer & firstboot, syslinux &
> > grub... Fedora logo for plymouth) and when it gets to the desktop part
> > it'll be neutral... not GNOME. Although I'm think the default webpage in
> > the browser will be a Fedora start page too, so Fedora branding doesn't
> > quite end at the desktop.
> I don't think there will necessarily be brand confusion, but I do think
> that our brand would be slightly weakened if this proposal passes. One
> of the reasons that I always stick with the default wallpaper (aside
> from how great it looks) is so that anybody who even gets a glance of my
> screen can tell that I'm running Fedora, and maybe even strike up a
> conversation about it :-). While all of the other branding is still
> very important, the wallpaper is really the only piece that will be seen
> by other people, and I don't want to lose that by default.

If our proposal is accepted, you'll definitely have the option of
switching to the Fedora wallpaper with 3 clicks of the mouse.

I think it also will be very clear to anybody looking at your Fedora 15
desktop, whatever the wallpaper, that:

- It's not Windows 7
- It's not OS X Snow Leopard
- It's not Ubuntu Unity

Do most of your conversations really center on why Fedora is better
than, say, Debian?

- Owen


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Old 12-18-2010, 12:23 AM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

Hi Martin,

On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 22:28 +0100, Martin Sourada wrote:
> IMHO this would lessen Fedora's visual identity a lot. Imagine you boot
> a F15 Desktop Live and what you see is almost pristine GNOME 3 desktop.
> Where's Fedora in it? Where's our own visual identity in it?

Our visual identity would (if the proposal is accepted) be present on
the website, on the DVD disc labels and sleeves, in syslinux, in the
installer, in firstboot, in plymouth, and on the login screen. The
wallpaper we design will be the default for GDM.

> Moreover,
> KDE shipped our wallpaper with the 4.0 release, why should we treat
> GNOME differently? Is it some new trend?

I honestly don't remember the KDE SIG ever approaching us with this
request. And honestly why would they? - they aren't the default
download, so it's not up to this team, it's up to the KDE SIG what to
do. This team, the design team, has purview over the default wallpaper
in the default Fedora. Spins have always been able to change their
wallpapers as they've liked, and we've even designed alternative
wallpapers for them at their request (e.g., Education Spin and Security
Spin.)

> OK, so upstream wants to promote GNOME 3. I'm not a fan of gnome-shell
> (quite the contrary), but let them do it. But why the visual identity?
> It's the behaviour, the work-flow, the experience that makes GNOME 3
> from end-user point of view, and it's the visual identity that makes our
> distro Fedora from end-user POV (among other things, but the visual
> identity is the first thing you see).

They believe the stripes is part of their upstream visual identity. To
be fair, they are producing a lot of nice visual materials including
videos that have the stripes - because as a DE they must remain neutral
wrt distros, so they obviously cannot pick a favorite in choosing a
wallpaper. They would like the visual identity then across
GNOME-produced materials and Fedora materials and materials produced by
journalists and other reviewers checking out GNOME 3 via Fedora to be
consistent. This makes sense to me. After F15, it won't be as big a deal
since all the hooplah will be over, so at that point we can go back to
the standard operating procedure.

> So in short, let's be *first* to ship GNOME 3 and let's be *first* to
> ship it with our own visual identity. We, the fedora design team, should
> be leaders in our area as well ;-)

I am unsure if we will be the first to ship GNOME 3. Certainly we will
be first to ship it by default. I don't understand how we are being
leaders in what you suggest here.

~m

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Old 12-18-2010, 12:28 AM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 23:42 +0100, Fabian A. Scherschel wrote:
>
> Maybe we as the Design Team should vote publicly on the request then.

That's certainly one approach we could take.
>
> How exactly is it that they need marketing? They will be the default
> in Fedora and the official future of the Gnome project. I can see how
> Unity needs branding and a marketing boost, but that's because they
> aren't the official upstream shell. Did people need to explicitely
> advertise Nautilus when Gnome 2 came out?

Nautilus and GNOME are not at the same level. GNOME 2 came out in 2002.
It will be out in 2011. That's a big deal. The Linux and even computing
in general environment is drastically different than it was in 2002.
This is not the year of Linux on the desktop. It may never be if we
don't try to reach a wider audience. This is what the GNOME 3 folks are
trying to do. To make our < 1% of desktop users grow, to make software
freedom more accessible to a wider range of people, to help make what we
all work on matter more.

So, yeah, I do think they need marketing.


> Sorry, I really didn't want to make it sound like a conspiracy. It's
> just that they way Mo talked about this special request looked a bit
> odd in the IRC logs. Once again, I am sorry I couldn't be there and
> ask the questions in person at the time.

How did I talk about it that made that impression? Can you help me
understand?

> OK, we definitely have a different view of the team then. Maybe it is
> because I haven't been on board that long. All I know is that people
> outside Fedora think that's what we are doing... May be a
> communication / PR issue then.

People outside of Fedora think we're going with the GNOME 3
wallpaper????

~m


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