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Old 12-17-2010, 12:46 PM
"Fabian A. Scherschel"
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 2:40 PM, Owen Taylor <otaylor@redhat.com> wrote:



My proposal is is straightforward:



*Once you select a user and log in to GNOME, you get the GNOME default

*background. All other artwork follows normal Fedora procedures.



While there are some mockups about how we'd like GDM to look like to

match the rest of GNOME 3 (See

http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-shell-design/plain/mockups/static/user-selector.png

) they aren't going to be implemented in this cycle, so there's already

a visual transition between the login screen and the desktop.
Hey, Owen!
Don't get me wrong, I love Gnome Shell, Gnome 3 and all the fantastic stuff you are doing! I mean this. But I can't support you in this. I really think this step is a huge mistake and it helps neither Fedora nor Gnome. I wish I could've been at the IRC meeting this week where this came up (there was absolutely no way I could've attended this week) and I would've said the same there.

I strongly believe distributions should be more than a collection of packages. They need their own visual identity. I think while Canonical pushes this way too far in one direction with Ubuntu, this move would push it too far in the opposite direction. Red Hat obviously knows this since I strongly believe there is no way they would give this up for RHEL. So why should we for Fedora?

Anyway, this is all just personal opinion and I am in no position to decide anything obviously. I just wanted to voice my concerns.
Fab
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Old 12-17-2010, 12:59 PM
Nicu Buculei
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

On 12/17/2010 03:40 PM, Owen Taylor wrote:
> On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 09:10 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote:
>> On 12/17/2010 01:54 AM, Owen Taylor wrote:
>>>
>>> I want to be clear that this is not in any way saying that we don't like
>>> the Fedora backgrounds ... the recent Fedora backgrounds are great, and
>>> keep on getting cleaner and more professional looking every release. The
>>> issue is rather a question of trying to provide a single look for the
>>> GNOME 3 release rather than a series of looks, one per distribution.
>>
>> Can you name at least one other *relevant* distro that will use the same
>> background as default? Especially if they know this may be *our* default?
>
> I'll certainly talk to the OpenSuSE and Debian GNOME maintainers and try
> to make convince them to make the same choice. I'm much more likely to
> succeed in that request if I have the support of the Fedora design team
> already lined up. And I really don't think how we configure our desktop
> should be held hostage to getting Debian to do the same thing. Fedora
> should be a leader here in working well with upstream.

With that you just invalidated your point above about "trying to provide
a single look for the GNOME 3 release rather than a series of looks",
all this "using the upstream" make sense *only* if everybody that
matters is doing it.

> My proposal is is straightforward:
>
> Once you select a user and log in to GNOME, you get the GNOME default
> background. All other artwork follows normal Fedora procedures.

So by default I get a GDM with vertical stripes and when choosing
anything else than GNOME Shell (be it the classic panel or Xfce), the
background image will change, while if I go to use the Shell, the
background stays consistent? That's treating everything else as
second-class.

> While there are some mockups about how we'd like GDM to look like to
> match the rest of GNOME 3 (See
> http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-shell-design/plain/mockups/static/user-selector.png
> ) they aren't going to be implemented in this cycle, so there's already
> a visual transition between the login screen and the desktop.

So we make so much noise for an incomplete desktop. It look to me like
GNOME 3 is not ready enough to receive such strong promotion.

--
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-17-2010, 01:31 PM
Owen Taylor
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 15:59 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote:
> On 12/17/2010 03:40 PM, Owen Taylor wrote:
> > On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 09:10 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote:
> >> On 12/17/2010 01:54 AM, Owen Taylor wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I want to be clear that this is not in any way saying that we don't like
> >>> the Fedora backgrounds ... the recent Fedora backgrounds are great, and
> >>> keep on getting cleaner and more professional looking every release. The
> >>> issue is rather a question of trying to provide a single look for the
> >>> GNOME 3 release rather than a series of looks, one per distribution.
> >>
> >> Can you name at least one other *relevant* distro that will use the same
> >> background as default? Especially if they know this may be *our* default?
> >
> > I'll certainly talk to the OpenSuSE and Debian GNOME maintainers and try
> > to make convince them to make the same choice. I'm much more likely to
> > succeed in that request if I have the support of the Fedora design team
> > already lined up. And I really don't think how we configure our desktop
> > should be held hostage to getting Debian to do the same thing. Fedora
> > should be a leader here in working well with upstream.
>
> With that you just invalidated your point above about "trying to provide
> a single look for the GNOME 3 release rather than a series of looks",
> all this "using the upstream" make sense *only* if everybody that
> matters is doing it.

The first two looks that I want to coordinate are the look of upstream -
the look we are going to feature on gnome3.org when that launches. And
the look of the distribution I care most about: Fedora. Hopefully that
will provide a good basis to get other distributions to take take same
approach, but I simply don't have a lot of influence over what Debian
does.

> > My proposal is is straightforward:
> >
> > Once you select a user and log in to GNOME, you get the GNOME default
> > background. All other artwork follows normal Fedora procedures.
>
> So by default I get a GDM with vertical stripes and when choosing
> anything else than GNOME Shell (be it the classic panel or Xfce), the
> background image will change, while if I go to use the Shell, the
> background stays consistent? That's treating everything else as
> second-class.

Please reread what I wrote.

(Note that the fallback mode of GNOME 3 which uses gnome-panel and
metacity uses all the same components and configuration for background
selection and display as the normal mode will have the same background.)

- Owen


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Old 12-17-2010, 01:44 PM
Owen Taylor
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 12:23 +0100, Fabian A. Scherschel wrote:
> Wow..... Just heard about this now. With all due respect, this is
> BULLSHIT. You are telling me you couldn't have told the team earlier?
> Maybe BEFORE we all started ramping up to do the F15 wallpaper? This
> decision must've been in the works for quite some time.

There's no secret cabal meeting a backroom to make decisions about how
we configure GNOME in Fedora; just a bunch of developers with overfilled
todo lists.

Obviously, the GNOME artists have been working on the look of GNOME 3
for a while and selected the stripes background months ago. But it was
really only yesterday when we saw the notice for the sketching sessions
for the Fedora 15 background process that we connected the dots and
realized that couldn't be two things configured as the default
background for GNOME 3.0 in Fedora 15.

I certainly apologize for not bringing this up earlier. We should have
brought it up earlier. (But it's still pretty early in the process, too,
right?)

> This is disappointing as hell. I had expected nonsense like that
> within the Ubuntu community, but not with Fedora. This would've been a
> chance to really set Fedora apart and create the best Gnome 3
> experience everywhere in an open and transparent way. We've said so
> since the last GUADEC. That is what the Design Team is for. If we just
> dictate a wallpaper from up hight, that maybe transparent but it's not
> open. At least not in my understanding of it. And now this, out of
> nowhere. What exactly is the Design Team doing for F15 now? Why are we
> even there at all?

Our general approach with the GNOME components in Fedora is to work
upstream whenever possible. It's very seldom that there's a change that
makes sense in Fedora that doesn't make sense upstream. So we try to
just do the change upstream.

I think we'd see the art the same way; if the icons can be improved, if
we can do a more attractive widget theme, then we should do that for
GNOME.

So, I guess we haven't necessarily seen the need for a big process to
design artwork for GNOME 3 in Fedora 15 that is separate from the normal
flow to design artwork for GNOME 3. The GNOME artists are very friendly
and open to people getting involved. You can find them on #gnome-art and
#gnome-design on GimpNet.

Obviously, there's work to be done to coordinate the user experience for
GNOME 3 and Fedora and make it fit together - at every level from how
the websites interact on down. There's still a few months to make that
happen.

- Owen



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Old 12-17-2010, 02:09 PM
Jaroslav Reznik
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

On Friday, December 17, 2010 03:44:37 pm Owen Taylor wrote:
> On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 12:23 +0100, Fabian A. Scherschel wrote:
> > Wow..... Just heard about this now. With all due respect, this is
> > BULLSHIT. You are telling me you couldn't have told the team earlier?
> > Maybe BEFORE we all started ramping up to do the F15 wallpaper? This
> > decision must've been in the works for quite some time.
>
> There's no secret cabal meeting a backroom to make decisions about how
> we configure GNOME in Fedora; just a bunch of developers with overfilled
> todo lists.
>
> Obviously, the GNOME artists have been working on the look of GNOME 3
> for a while and selected the stripes background months ago. But it was
> really only yesterday when we saw the notice for the sketching sessions
> for the Fedora 15 background process that we connected the dots and
> realized that couldn't be two things configured as the default
> background for GNOME 3.0 in Fedora 15.
>
> I certainly apologize for not bringing this up earlier. We should have
> brought it up earlier. (But it's still pretty early in the process, too,
> right?)
>
> > This is disappointing as hell. I had expected nonsense like that
> > within the Ubuntu community, but not with Fedora. This would've been a
> > chance to really set Fedora apart and create the best Gnome 3
> > experience everywhere in an open and transparent way. We've said so
> > since the last GUADEC. That is what the Design Team is for. If we just
> > dictate a wallpaper from up hight, that maybe transparent but it's not
> > open. At least not in my understanding of it. And now this, out of
> > nowhere. What exactly is the Design Team doing for F15 now? Why are we
> > even there at all?
>
> Our general approach with the GNOME components in Fedora is to work
> upstream whenever possible. It's very seldom that there's a change that
> makes sense in Fedora that doesn't make sense upstream. So we try to
> just do the change upstream.
>
> I think we'd see the art the same way; if the icons can be improved, if
> we can do a more attractive widget theme, then we should do that for
> GNOME.
>
> So, I guess we haven't necessarily seen the need for a big process to
> design artwork for GNOME 3 in Fedora 15 that is separate from the normal
> flow to design artwork for GNOME 3. The GNOME artists are very friendly
> and open to people getting involved. You can find them on #gnome-art and
> #gnome-design on GimpNet.
>
> Obviously, there's work to be done to coordinate the user experience for
> GNOME 3 and Fedora and make it fit together - at every level from how
> the websites interact on down. There's still a few months to make that
> happen.

Fedora is not Gnome only What about Gnome 3 Fedora Remix for Gnome demo
version? Other desktop environments are using these approach - it's very easy to
do it, everything can be rebranded but mention Fedora Remix somewhere

If not a Remix, I don't care if Gnome spin goes with non Gnome theme anymore -
it's up to you, your responsibility, your choice Fedora or Gnome ;-) But we need
then answer for other spins/old Gnome 2.x - are we going to prepare theme for
F15 (looks like, I'd appreciate that, you guys here rocks!), or should we go to
upstream wallpaper too (upstreams would be happy then ;-). But it's decision not
only for F15 but F15+ - skipping from our, to upstream's theme, then back is not
a good idea. Very inconsistent behaviour.

Jaroslav

> - Owen
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> design-team mailing list
> design-team@lists.fedoraproject.org
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team

--
Jaroslav Řezn*k <jreznik@redhat.com>
Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno

Office: +420 532 294 275
Mobile: +420 602 797 774
Red Hat, Inc. http://cz.redhat.com/
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Old 12-17-2010, 02:48 PM
Owen Taylor
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 10:26 +0100, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:

> > Case in point: the GDM background would be the same as the GNOME
> > background or as the general-purpose background used by all the other
> > spins? Which one of the spins will have an inconsistent experience? The
> > same about the Plymouth colors. We are supposed to use *vertical
> > stripes* or not in GRUB, Anaconda, firstboot etc.? How about website
> > identity?
>
> I'm not against even making theme based on Gnome/KDE stripes - it should work
> for both Gnome 3 and other desktops and still retains our Identity. Gnome 3
> would have stripes based theme but with Fedora feel there - win and profit for
> both projects!
>
> Last time I proposed it, it wasn't accepted but still I think this can work. It
> could bring some "personality" to spins - to combine upstream themes with Fedora
> ones. But it involves much more work.

In some ways, using the stripes background as the main Fedora 15 theme
is attractive to me if the design team wanted to go that route. It gives
good consistency and maximum impact.

But it also seems a bit weird. If we're making Fedora 15 all stripey to
celebrate GNOME 3 being in Fedora 15, isn't it weird if you download the
XFCE or KDE spins and don't get GNOME 3 and still see all the stripes?

I'm also expecting it would make it much harder for me to make my case
for other distributions to also use the GNOME background as the default
background.

- Owen


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Old 12-17-2010, 02:49 PM
"Paul W. Frields"
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 02:40:38PM +0100, Fabian A. Scherschel wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 2:16 PM, Paul W. Frields <stickster@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >
> > Can we cool down the rhetoric just a bit? That would really help this
> > discussion be more constructive, so thanks in advance Fab.
>
> That implies that there actually *is* a discussion. From what I've read so
> far, this "special request" wasn't a request at all and didn't sound like
> something that was really negotiable.

I just read the post here by Owen and it specifically says "request."
Anything else is reportage or inference.

> > Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that sketching had just
> > begun for F15 wallpaper. Is this request undoing a really huge amount
> > of work? For instance, I don't see any entries yet here:
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F15_Artwork
>
> I think all who worked on this so far were under the impression that we were
> working on the default wallpaper. Of course, this isn't undoing any work but
> I think it's a huge disappointment for the people who were working on this.
> I couldn't make the actual meeting but I was prepared to put a lot of effort
> into a wallpaper proposal, I'm not sure the arrangement that we have now
> warrants that.

Again, we're considering a request, not responding to a directive.

> > According to the schedule, the "Design wallpaper" task just started
> > three days ago. So it seems to me this request comes at a pretty good
> > time, seeing as how that task lasts about three weeks. We just don't
> > want to take all three weeks to debate and decide, then, right?
>
> OK, let me put this bluntly: This "request", if it goes through, will take
> away maybe 80% of what the team actually influences in a release for the F15
> cycle. At least that's my impression (keep in mind that I haven't been with
> the team all that long). You are basically asking us to put aside all
> previously established pratices on voting for the final default wallpaper
> among several wallpaper candidates prepared by the team and third parties.
> And who knows if this isn't going to be the way we'll do it from here on
> out? As much as I like Fedora's upstream policy, applying that to artwork is
> silly IMHO. Either that or having a Design Team at all is.

I'm not asking, I'm giving my opinion on a request that was made by
someone else. I think it sounds like a cool opportunity to provide
support for an upstream community of free software developers.
Perhaps our decision might be influenced as well by whether Fedora
gets any recognition for featuring the GNOME 3 release.

Are you saying that if the Design team doesn't provide the specific
default wallpaper for every release, there's no point in having one?
That seems like a really broad exaggeration to me given all the other
things I've seen the team doing beyond just release artwork. I'm not
saying wallpaper isn't important -- re-read my message and you'll see
that I mean exactly the opposite.

It's precisely because Owen understands the visibility of the
wallpaper that he went to great length to explain the nature of his
request. So it's unfair to say anyone's not sensitive to that,
because that seems to me to be the entire reason the request was made.
I'd hope we're not becoming a team or project that has no ability to
constructively address requests or find ways to promote great free
software.

> > Personally, I really like the idea that Fedora is being asked to be
> > the tip of the spear showing off the new GNOME 3. A lot of work has
> > gone into it, and not just by people inside Red Hat, but by a wide
> > community of free software contributors.
>
> Nobody is doubting that. But does that mean we have to ship the default
> wallpaper? If we had known this earlier, maybe we could've been involved in
> the creation of that default wallpaper then.... I have been saying for ages
> that having a kickass Gnome 3 setup could be a really huge step in setting
> Fedora apart visually (something that is badly needed IMO) and I can't
> really see how shipping the default wallpaper in Fedora is helping Gnome
> Shell. If Gnome Shell is really defined by their wallpaper, we have a lot
> bigger problems than I though...

Check out Owen's request again to see if it helps clarify this. He
indicated this is a one-time branding opportunity to help GNOME 3 with
marketing their release, and specifically set out reasons for the
request.

> > On top of that, I seem to recall that the Desktop Live image for F-15
> > was slated to be larger than CD-sized. If that's the case, with
> > proper coordination between teams, why not look into having an entire
> > set of supplemental wallpapers created by the Fedora Design team
> > included in the Desktop Live image? I'm not sure we've ever included
> > those by default before, but it would be a great way to let people
> > further customize their Fedora desktop, out of the box and in a Fedora
> > specific way if they want.
> >
> That sounds great, but it sure sounds to me like you're trying to appease
> the Design Team for having its biggest responsibility taken away. As I said,
> I have no clue when the idea to ship the default Gnome art came up or where
> exactly it originated but I think the whole Design Team should have been
> included in the discussion right then and there.

I'm not trying to appease anyone, I'm simply saying why I personally
feel this could be a worthwhile one-time concession. Agree or
disagree, but it's not necessary to attach conspiracy theories. I
found out at the same time you did (well, later really, since I came
into the discussion late, not being at the meeting, for which I
apologize!).

And personally I think creating wallpaper is not the biggest
responsibility for the Design team. It may be one of the most widely
visible ones, but it's not the most important IMHO. I think the most
important responsibility of the team is handling the many requests for
design from the community that come up regularly, both connected to
releases and for completely ad-hoc tasks. Those requests help Fedora
contributors have amazing presence at shows, create cool displays,
attract people to the project, and so forth. Wallpaper is part of
that responsibility, traditionally, but I don't think it's the
overwhelming majority.

On a completely separate note, I really dig the fact that the default
GNOME wallpaper has a theme that's very Fedora compatible -- blue
shaded and generally taking into consideration design principles from
some previous Fedora releases. If it were really incompatible with
what we generally provide, I might have a different opinion, but it's
quite nice and seems like the kind of thing we might produce for a
release ourselves. I guess for me that really tips the scales and
makes this seem like an opportunity to collaborate rather than have a
turf war.

--
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Old 12-17-2010, 03:01 PM
Owen Taylor
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 16:09 +0100, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
> On Friday, December 17, 2010 03:44:37 pm Owen Taylor wrote:
> > On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 12:23 +0100, Fabian A. Scherschel wrote:
> > > This is disappointing as hell. I had expected nonsense like that
> > > within the Ubuntu community, but not with Fedora. This would've been a
> > > chance to really set Fedora apart and create the best Gnome 3
> > > experience everywhere in an open and transparent way. We've said so
> > > since the last GUADEC. That is what the Design Team is for. If we just
> > > dictate a wallpaper from up hight, that maybe transparent but it's not
> > > open. At least not in my understanding of it. And now this, out of
> > > nowhere. What exactly is the Design Team doing for F15 now? Why are we
> > > even there at all?
> >
> > Our general approach with the GNOME components in Fedora is to work
> > upstream whenever possible. It's very seldom that there's a change that
> > makes sense in Fedora that doesn't make sense upstream. So we try to
> > just do the change upstream.
> >
> > I think we'd see the art the same way; if the icons can be improved, if
> > we can do a more attractive widget theme, then we should do that for
> > GNOME.
> >
> > So, I guess we haven't necessarily seen the need for a big process to
> > design artwork for GNOME 3 in Fedora 15 that is separate from the normal
> > flow to design artwork for GNOME 3. The GNOME artists are very friendly
> > and open to people getting involved. You can find them on #gnome-art and
> > #gnome-design on GimpNet.
> >
> > Obviously, there's work to be done to coordinate the user experience for
> > GNOME 3 and Fedora and make it fit together - at every level from how
> > the websites interact on down. There's still a few months to make that
> > happen.
>
> Fedora is not Gnome only What about Gnome 3 Fedora Remix for Gnome demo
> version? Other desktop environments are using these approach - it's very easy to
> do it, everything can be rebranded but mention Fedora Remix somewhere

If the team doing the default Fedora desktop switched and did a GNOME
remix instead this cycle, who would do the default Fedora desktop?
(I'm sure you'd be happy to switch the default to KDE for this cycle,
but... ;-)

And how would we distinguish between the two different downloads when
presenting options to the user? We'd basically be offering the user the
choice between two different almost identical things because we couldn't
come to a decision.

> If not a Remix, I don't care if Gnome spin goes with non Gnome theme anymore -
> it's up to you, your responsibility, your choice Fedora or Gnome ;-) But we need
> then answer for other spins/old Gnome 2.x - are we going to prepare theme for
> F15 (looks like, I'd appreciate that, you guys here rocks!), or should we go to
> upstream wallpaper too (upstreams would be happy then ;-). But it's decision not
> only for F15 but F15+ - skipping from our, to upstream's theme, then back is not
> a good idea. Very inconsistent behaviour.

I don't think doing something different for Fedora 15 for GNOME and then
not doing it for Fedora 16 is going to be that disruptive to the user.
The backgrounds are different every release and the stripes background
is within the realm of something that would make a plausible Fedora
background. It's not a huge foot emblem sitting in the middle of the
desktop, and it's even blue.

My suggestion to you guys if we go this route is really to keep the
change as minimal as possible and proceed as normal with the other
desktop backgrounds and the rest of the art.

Obviously if the art team feels its a waste of time to do a set of art
when the background image in that art set is only an optional choice
within GNOME then something else will have to be figured out, but it
seems that there still is a lot of exposure to the art set elsewhere and
on other desktops.

- Owne


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Old 12-17-2010, 03:03 PM
Jaroslav Reznik
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

On Friday, December 17, 2010 04:48:00 pm Owen Taylor wrote:
> On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 10:26 +0100, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
> > > Case in point: the GDM background would be the same as the GNOME
> > > background or as the general-purpose background used by all the other
> > > spins? Which one of the spins will have an inconsistent experience? The
> > > same about the Plymouth colors. We are supposed to use *vertical
> > > stripes* or not in GRUB, Anaconda, firstboot etc.? How about website
> > > identity?
> >
> > I'm not against even making theme based on Gnome/KDE stripes - it should
> > work for both Gnome 3 and other desktops and still retains our Identity.
> > Gnome 3 would have stripes based theme but with Fedora feel there - win
> > and profit for both projects!
> >
> > Last time I proposed it, it wasn't accepted but still I think this can
> > work. It could bring some "personality" to spins - to combine upstream
> > themes with Fedora ones. But it involves much more work.
>
> In some ways, using the stripes background as the main Fedora 15 theme
> is attractive to me if the design team wanted to go that route. It gives
> good consistency and maximum impact.
>
> But it also seems a bit weird. If we're making Fedora 15 all stripey to
> celebrate GNOME 3 being in Fedora 15, isn't it weird if you download the
> XFCE or KDE spins and don't get GNOME 3 and still see all the stripes?
>
> I'm also expecting it would make it much harder for me to make my case
> for other distributions to also use the GNOME background as the default
> background.

Other distributions already are doing it this way for Plasma Desktop! Even one
based on stripes theme [1] - it does not work for us as logo is involved in
design. So it should be much more easier to convince them to do it than just
"throw away your brand/identity".

For more info, see [2], [3].

Quoting Pinoheiro - "We don't want to kill each of the distributions own
branding, we want to share, I would not slap a KDE logo on top of your
distribution logo, nothing like that.
What we are after is creating something that is recognizable across the room
something people can see as recognizable, a "hey that is pretty and I have seen
it some ware else". I would do my best to keep a strong visual connection to the
specific distro brand but in a way that one brand doesn't kill the other."

You can find it even in Design team mailing list archive.

Jaroslav

[1] http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/2010/08/12/distribution-branding-and-
stripes/
[2] http://pinheiro-kde.blogspot.com/2009/06/sharing-brand.html
[3] http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2009/06/building-brand-together.html

> - Owen
>
>
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--
Jaroslav Řezn*k <jreznik@redhat.com>
Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno

Office: +420 532 294 275
Mobile: +420 602 797 774
Red Hat, Inc. http://cz.redhat.com/
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Old 12-17-2010, 03:03 PM
Mirn Duffy
 
Default GNOME background in Fedora 15

Hi Nicu,

On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 09:10 +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote:
> On 12/17/2010 01:54 AM, Owen Taylor wrote:
> >
> > We want Fedora to be the showcase for GNOME 3 and to be a good example
> > to other distributions about how to package GNOME 3. So, to go along
> > with the release splash for Fedora 15, we'd like to make special request
> > that for this release we use the GNOME background in the Fedora GNOME
> > packages and hence in the default Fedora desktop.
>
> As I understood the opinions in the latest team IRC meeting, blog
> comments, mailing list discussions and direct contacts with community
> members, the general opinion is such a move would be detrimental to
> Fedora's own image and of little use for GNOME promotion.

So there's a few things to consider here.... for example, the GNOME
marketing team is actually engaged in an effort to create a series of
videos showing off different aspects of GNOME 3 for the launch (some
details here: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeMarketing/Gnome3In30Seconds ...
I saw one of the videos at the Boston Summit but I'm not sure where they
are online, I'll look for a copy though - they are impressive!) If they
use the default GNOME wallpaper, but we use a different wallpaper,
there's a missed opportunity for shared materials there. E.g., we could
use the videos (which are openly licensed of course!) as part of our
website without having to modify them or re-shoot them.

It is true that KDE 4.5 shipped with a wallpaper that is strikingly
similar to the GNOME 3 wallpaper, but I've talked to a few KDE users and
it seems that it was not ever set as the default wallpaper for a KDE
release so it doesn't have the same brand attachment to KDE that the
GNOME 3 team is looking to achieve.

Another thing to think about is the larger struggle between upstreams'
branding and downstream branding. GNOME 3 isn't trying to produce a
desktop that shoves the GNOME foot in your face constantly and competes
with the Fedora brand. The GNOME logo really doesn't appear anywhere. I
think they are going for a more neutral look that won't override the
distro branding leading up to the desktop, and won't confuse users over
what they are using. This is in stark contrast to say the HTC Sense UI
on my Android phone, which definitely had me confused for the first few
weeks I had the phone. E.g., "is this a real Android phone? or is this
some HTC knockoff? Whaaaaat?" You know it's not like we're being asked
to put something like this in:
http://julbgordo.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/nascar-vehicle.jpg

If we as a team choose to consider Owen's request, there won't be brand
confusion between Fedora and GNOME - the Fedora brand will be strong
from the website / DVD sleeve through the install and bootup process
(Fedora splash graphics for the installer & firstboot, syslinux &
grub... Fedora logo for plymouth) and when it gets to the desktop part
it'll be neutral... not GNOME. Although I'm think the default webpage in
the browser will be a Fedora start page too, so Fedora branding doesn't
quite end at the desktop.

Finally I think another thing to consider this as an F15 request is that
we will, as a result of GNOME 3 being released by default in Fedora
first (freedom features friends -first-) get a lot of newcomers to
Fedora, whether they're journalists or GNOME fans from other distros -
so either way we decide we are going to get a big influx of folks who
haven't tried Fedora before, and it's because of GNOME 3. It's a big
opportunity for us as a distro.... it may be a decision point for a lot
of users who have considering switching to us and would have a big
reason to check us out. Since they are getting us, as Fedora, more
attention, it seems quite reasonable to me to at least consider the
GNOME 3 team's request.

> > I want to be clear that this is not in any way saying that we don't like
> > the Fedora backgrounds ... the recent Fedora backgrounds are great, and
> > keep on getting cleaner and more professional looking every release. The
> > issue is rather a question of trying to provide a single look for the
> > GNOME 3 release rather than a series of looks, one per distribution.
>
> Can you name at least one other *relevant* distro that will use the same
> background as default? Especially if they know this may be *our* default?
>
> > * What about the rest of the artwork?
> >
> > I think trying to adapt the entire set of artwork in Fedora to have
> > different looks for different spins is probably more confusing then
> > anything else. The GNOME default background matches pretty well with
> > the Fedora look, so it's not going to be jarring to switch to it
> > after seeing the standard Fedora artwork for boot.
>
> Case in point: the GDM background would be the same as the GNOME
> background or as the general-purpose background used by all the other
> spins? Which one of the spins will have an inconsistent experience? The
> same about the Plymouth colors. We are supposed to use *vertical
> stripes* or not in GRUB, Anaconda, firstboot etc.? How about website
> identity?

I asked Owen some very specific questions yesterday about this, here is
what I learned about the proposal:

- The GDM background will *not* be the same as the GNOME background.
It's going to be this team's (Fedora design team) design. When the user
logs in with their username & password is when the switch will happen.

- We can ship the Fedora background by default (no additional package
installation required... out-of-the-box is what we're talking here) and
place it prominently in the background chooser capplet.

- While using the Fedora background for the GNOME 2 style fallback mode
is actually a favorable idea (helps distinguish between the two modes),
the way it is currently implemented makes this quite difficult because
the same controls are being used for both modes. So this might not be
possible but in theory it is an idea the GNOME 3 folks would support
were it technically possible.

- We can absolutely design artwork for the rest of Fedora that is
harmonious with the GNOME background. We can do this via color palette,
meme (stripes, whatever)... it breaks the GNOME 3's visual identity goal
to ship the same exact background with the other Fedora desktops but we
certainly can work on a heavily-inspired-by version for our own
wallpaper. (As we've started to do during the sketching session with the
water trails idea.)

I had a lot of the same questions Nicu, and I talked to Owen about it
yesterday so I hope some of this helps understand where we'd be if we do
as a team decide to consider the request. It is absolutely our team's
choice though as dictated by the Fedora board some time ago, and I'm
very happy to see that being respected here. I will be quite candid with
you and say that my initial internal reaction was quite similar to
Fab's but the more we ask questions and get more of the story behind
why the request is being asked of us, the more I understand why it is
important for them and is an opportunity for Fedora and for this team in
particular in developing better relations with upstream (an important
characteristic of Fedora in general) and consequently our peers in other
FLOSS projects.

Again, to reiterate - this is our team's call, it's our decision. Let's
be fair and respectful and give it some serious thought. My first
priority is to you folks, my friends, our team.... but there has been a
rift between our team and the one making the request here and this is I
think a good opportunity for us to have a better, friendlier
relationship and really just make Fedora kick more ass through that
relationship. It's supposed to be freedom, features, friends, first...
not freedom, features, oh-no-not-you-again-grrr, first...

~m


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