Matthias Clasen wrote:
> Jon invested a significant amount of work in a comparison of OS
> background images, and sent the document to this list. Is that
> participating in the process ? I guess not. But it was an attempt to
> influence the outcome of the process for the better.
Actually, I would have to say that it was not participating
in the process, at least not until two weeks ago. You see,
if I didn't read planet GNOME, I never would have seen that
document before he posted it to this list two weeks ago. It
was posted to his blog months ago and was never shared with
this group and the blog never hit planet Fedora.
> I don't agree with this at all. Conversation should not end. What must
> end is the divisive 'us' vs. 'them' mentality. The conversion about the
> goals and visions for the desktop and its art should continue. And I
> will defend the freedom of anybody in my team to criticize the art, just
> as everybody else is free to criticize what vt we choose to run X on.
I don't think anyone takes issue with criticism so let's
shelve that point right here. (Although it would be nice if
in the cases where it unprofessional, that it could instead
be polite and professional.)
I think people take issue with the fact that essentially we
are hearing, "this doesn't fit with our vision" when there
is no way anyone can know of or what that vision is since
it's never been articulated anywhere. Also, "I don't like
it" (or worse) without any explanation of why. It's nice to
know you do not like it but there is not much that can be
done to improve it based on "I don't like it." I've taken
studio art classes before where the professor laid down
ground rules to forbid anyone from saying "I don't like it"
without giving at least two specific points of critique to
help the person improve their work or at least understand
where the critiquer was coming from.
~m
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10-30-2008, 12:43 PM
Bill Nottingham
Artwork Quality (was Sound themes)
Nicu Buculei (nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro) said:
>> They almost certainly are. The audience for Fedora Electronics Lab
>> wouldn't be the same audience as for Fedora Desktop, which isn't
>> (necessarily) the same audience as Fedora KDE, which isn't the
>> same audience as 'the Fedora spin'. I'm pretty sure the audience
>> for the latter has never been clearly defined.
>
> The thing is that we want to make easier for people to "get" Fedora,
> with a simplified download page and such, offering as default a single
> option and this option is the Desktop spin, effectively making it the
> main spin.
OK. But even in that case, I'm sure you could see how if the
artwork is designed for 'the main spin' for one set of users (such as
enthusiasts, whatever that means) and the code is designed for
a different set of users (such as general desktop users, whatever
that means) that there is inevitably going to be conflicts.
> We get from time to time requests for such customized artwork, he most
> recent which come to my mind is the Security spin. Sometime the requests
> are meet with resistance by people like me who does not understand the
> need of a Fedora spin with a different look and feel (or the purpose of
> still calling it Fedora)
... ? Part of the whole purpose is to have different spins for what
people want to do with Fedora software, whether it's the Games spin,
the Education spin, the XO/Sugar spin. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.
Bill
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10-30-2008, 12:45 PM
Bill Nottingham
Artwork Quality (was Sound themes)
Paul W. Frields (stickster@gmail.com) said:
> "User Experience. Fedora offers a user experience unsurpassed by other
> fully free software distributions."
Which means.... what exactly? 'Unsurpassed' implies a great quantity or
level of something, and I'm not sure 'user experience' is quantified
in that way.
(Sorry, being nitpicky.)
Bill
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10-30-2008, 12:57 PM
Nicu Buculei
Artwork Quality (was Sound themes)
Bill Nottingham wrote:
Nicu Buculei said:
We get from time to time requests for such customized artwork, he most
recent which come to my mind is the Security spin. Sometime the requests
are meet with resistance by people like me who does not understand the
need of a Fedora spin with a different look and feel (or the purpose of
still calling it Fedora)
... ? Part of the whole purpose is to have different spins for what
people want to do with Fedora software, whether it's the Games spin,
the Education spin, the XO/Sugar spin. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.
If a spin is geared for games, for example, you think is a good idea for
it to have an inverted GTK+ theme (white on black), a wallpaper that
make your eyes hurt and a general look that does not resemble Fedora at all?
I think is a bad idea to go for something like
http://ubuntustudio.org/screenshots
--
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com
Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/
Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org
my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro
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10-30-2008, 01:09 PM
"William Jon McCann"
Artwork Quality (was Sound themes)
Hey,
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 4:03 AM, Nicu Buculei <nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro> wrote:
> Matthias Clasen wrote:
>>
>> Jon invested a significant amount of work in a comparison of OS
>> background images, and sent the document to this list. Is that
>> participating in the process ? I guess not. But it was an attempt to
>> influence the outcome of the process for the better.
>
> Sorry, but *not*.
> Jon wrote that piece half year ago (in May) and published it on his blog
> which is aggregated *only* on Planet Gnome. He didn't brought it on either
> fedora-desktop or fedora-art. So I qualify it as outside of the process.
> The talked here about it for the first time only a few days ago, roughly 6
> months after publishing.
Just for the record, you are being disingenuous.
Matthias mentioned it on this list before I could:
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-May/msg00200.html
It was even mentioned in the Fedora Weekly News:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN/Issue129
(and says that you were the author of that section)
At that time I *was* syndicated on planet fedora. Seth Vidal added me
on Apr 14. That was before the new account system kicked in or
something.
Also a little shocking that you consider planet gnome outside your community.
Dude, seriously.
Jon
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10-30-2008, 01:16 PM
Bill Nottingham
Artwork Quality (was Sound themes)
Nicu Buculei (nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro) said:
>>> We get from time to time requests for such customized artwork, he
>>> most recent which come to my mind is the Security spin. Sometime the
>>> requests are meet with resistance by people like me who does not
>>> understand the need of a Fedora spin with a different look and feel
>>> (or the purpose of still calling it Fedora)
>>
>> ... ? Part of the whole purpose is to have different spins for what
>> people want to do with Fedora software, whether it's the Games spin,
>> the Education spin, the XO/Sugar spin. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.
>
> If a spin is geared for games, for example, you think is a good idea for
> it to have an inverted GTK+ theme (white on black), a wallpaper that
> make your eyes hurt and a general look that does not resemble Fedora at
> all?
> I think is a bad idea to go for something like
> http://ubuntustudio.org/screenshots
There's a difference between having somewhat of a 'different look and feel'
depending on audience, and something that 'makes your eyes hurt', aside
from the subjective taste issues that involves. XO would be a primary
example - Sugar's going to have a different look and feel before you even
get to any artwork, and Fedora specific artwork may be better off trying
to fit into that motif than coercing it to the motif we have now.
(Especially if the target audience is a different userbase/age group/whatever.)
Bill
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10-30-2008, 01:43 PM
Nicu Buculei
Artwork Quality (was Sound themes)
William Jon McCann wrote:
Just for the record, you are being disingenuous.
Matthias mentioned it on this list before I could:
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-May/msg00200.html
It was even mentioned in the Fedora Weekly News:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN/Issue129
(and says that you were the author of that section)
Sorry for that, I forgot about that, I was remembering the post form
Planet Gnome and today I searched the list archive only for threads
start, not deep into conversation. So sorry, my mistake.
At that time I *was* syndicated on planet fedora. Seth Vidal added me
on Apr 14. That was before the new account system kicked in or
something.
Also a little shocking that you consider planet gnome outside your community.
I *do* read Planet Gnome almost daily, but I *do not* read Planet KDE or
Planet XFCE, Planet Mozilla or Planet OpenOffice.org at all and
arguably, they are equally part of the community.
--
nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com
Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/
Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org
my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro
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10-30-2008, 02:08 PM
Máirín Duffy
Artwork Quality (was Sound themes)
William Jon McCann wrote:
> Hey,
>
> On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 4:03 AM, Nicu Buculei <nicu_fedora@nicubunu.ro> wrote:
>> Matthias Clasen wrote:
>>> Jon invested a significant amount of work in a comparison of OS
>>> background images, and sent the document to this list. Is that
>>> participating in the process ? I guess not. But it was an attempt to
>>> influence the outcome of the process for the better.
>> Sorry, but *not*.
>> Jon wrote that piece half year ago (in May) and published it on his blog
>> which is aggregated *only* on Planet Gnome. He didn't brought it on either
>> fedora-desktop or fedora-art. So I qualify it as outside of the process.
>> The talked here about it for the first time only a few days ago, roughly 6
>> months after publishing.
>
> Just for the record, you are being disingenuous.
>
> Matthias mentioned it on this list before I could:
> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-art-list/2008-May/msg00200.html
>
> It was even mentioned in the Fedora Weekly News:
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN/Issue129
> (and says that you were the author of that section)
In either case, I do not remember your being involved in a
discussion about it until now. Not six months ago. I think
that is why a few of us here are having a hard time even
recalling it being posted here.
I mean, if I write a document about, I don't know, creating
Gimp brushes, and some community somewhere picks up on it,
let's say a brushes group on deviant art, and discusses it,
that is great. But if I'm not participating directly in that
community or even are aware that community is using my
document am I really a part of that deviant art brush group?
I would think not.
But this is a really silly point to argue. So let's talk
about your analysis of the document rather than who posted
it where and when. I would love to hear more about your
takeaways from creating it.
~m
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10-30-2008, 04:43 PM
"Paul W. Frields"
Artwork Quality (was Sound themes)
On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 09:45 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> Paul W. Frields (stickster@gmail.com) said:
> > "User Experience. Fedora offers a user experience unsurpassed by other
> > fully free software distributions."
>
> Which means.... what exactly? 'Unsurpassed' implies a great quantity or
> level of something, and I'm not sure 'user experience' is quantified
> in that way.
>
> (Sorry, being nitpicky.)
Actually one of that word's meanings is simply to excel, which need not
be related to quantity.
Artwork Quality (was Sound themes)
